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Super deep 11R - 70K guaranteed

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Super deep 11R - 70K guaranteed - Thu Jan 05, 2012, 09:51 PM
(#1)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Think there was about 30 people left at this point.

Is this just a cooler here, or can I get away from it? I don't think I took enough time to make my decision on the river, probably due to the fact I was running very hot.

Dazzler1966 (86 hands): VP:13 PFR: 12 AFq: 50
manu44s (73 hands): VP: 15 PFR:11 AFq: 40



Preflop:

Neither player had been doing anything crazy, Dazzler opens from EP.. so just happy flatting with AJ in the SB. Manu has decent pot odds to call with a wide range so can put on something like 22+, suited connectors/gappers, all paint.

Flop:

I flop the nuts, I was just planning to check raise here and obviously stack off. Looking back is there any reason to donk here? to protect from the flush draw? I just assumed a K was in Dazzlers opening range and in Manu's flatting range as well.

Turn:

Once Dazzler checks back such a dangerous flop, I've effectively ruled him out of having any made hand here. I lead out, Manu flats.... This narrows Manu's range to flush draws, QJ, KJ, QK, QT, JT, AJ, J9 (Would of been weird not to lead the flop) QQ/KK (Would be a weird flat pre) and TT.

River:

A complete brick on the river. I really think I should of check called looking back... I just didn't want to miss value, from a K , Trips, worse straight. I put a small blocker bet out hoping to get called by worse... As I said before Manu had done nothing crazy up until now, so the raise was just never a bluff, but the price is way to good to fold right? I was definitely folding to a shove.

Completely changed my tournament, I was about 3rd at this stage. I finished the tournament in 20th.

What does everyone think?

Cheers!
 
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Thu Jan 05, 2012, 10:22 PM
(#2)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
PRE - with this deep 48BB i would have raised to 120,000 to get info from my opp and just to get rid away of the BB

Flop - i will never check a flop straight here. Never let your opp get free card with a board like this.Someone might chase for their straight also for a one card straight which will chop with you and yes the FD you need to worry about that. You have to get max value here and the best is to take down the pot right here. You need to bet 75% of the pot.

Turn: Very scary turn but with no info about the strength of your hand you need to continue to bet but this time 50% of the pot.

your opp called your bet here so he might have something- a boat crushed your hand but he only flat your call so he may have trips only or drawing also to a flush or one card straight

River : is blank

he flatted your turn bet so you should be worry about the boat, you should C/C

i think your opp played this hand perfectly he doesn't want you to go away. he want his opp to hit their flush or hit anything that's why your opp is not raising in the turn. he just did it at the river and he only min raise you so that you will not be scared.

well played by your opp.

but if you reraise PRE and the BB will 3bet you because he have Q's.You might fold PRE to save yourself from any trouble.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 12:49 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The real question for me is, what is manu's range when he flats the turn? I know you put that in your OP, but I think that his line looks very suspicious for someone who apparently has tightish stats. How many hands in your assessment of his range can we rule out because he would have folded preflop? A lot, I think. And what we're left with is a lot of two pairs that become full houses on the turn.

I would have played it very similarly to you, and if check/calling the river is the best play, then I'm not good enough to make it. I would have been after the value as well. Perhaps you could have folded the river, because what are you actually beating? But I'll leave that to better MTT players than myself to answer.

The only big difference in what I would have done is I would have folded preflop. The opener is in early (maybe mid, I forget) position and he's a tight player. Automuck imo.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 03:11 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Kye,

Some thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyeBuff View Post
Flop:

I flop the nuts, I was just planning to check raise here and obviously stack off. Looking back is there any reason to donk here? to protect from the flush draw? I just assumed a K was in Dazzlers opening range and in Manu's flatting range as well.
Clearly we want to get it in with the nuts if we can, but I would donk out here. Not to protect your hand (doubt anyone's folding a flush draw if they happen to have one) but for value. There are a lot of scary turn cards that can kill your action. By donking out you don't risk a free card, AND they will not put you on the nuts so you'll get raised by a lot of the made hands in their ranges which does include sets and 2 pairs as well as strong 1 pair hands like AK and AA. So I would take a bet/3B line for value.

Quote:
River:

A complete brick on the river. I really think I should of check called looking back... I just didn't want to miss value, from a K , Trips, worse straight. I put a small blocker bet out hoping to get called by worse... As I said before Manu had done nothing crazy up until now, so the raise was just never a bluff, but the price is way to good to fold right?
I agree. The raise is pretty much never a bluff, but your hand is disguised a bit so he might raise for value with some worse hands here like AQ or J9... so I'd call this as well.

Dave


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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 02:23 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Kye,

I agree with Dave on leading out here on the flop for value. You get to build a pot while you have the best hand currently available. If they raise, then you can 3-bet here with the best hand.
I also agree that there are a number of cards that will be scare cards for both you and the opp on the turn, that could stop the action in the hand.

On the turn, when the opp calls, they hit some part of the board and now that the board has paired, a full house is definitely within their range.

River: There are really two choices here, either check/call or value bet. If you value bet and get raised, it's most likely going to be from KK, KQ, Q10, 10's or K10 for a full house, although QQ for quads is also in their range and due to that, I'd have folded here. The opp could try to bluff here, but if they were playing passively the hands before, then all of a sudden raised the river here, it's most likely a better made hand. I was expecting to see them flip over the full house, not quads here, but either hand is ahead.

20th is still a great run for a tourney like this Keep it up!

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 03:19 PM
(#6)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
I would like to bet on the flop as well.

I understand you wanting to check-raise with the nuts hoping to get extra value. But I don't think your opponents are betting on this flop often enough to give you the option to check-raise. Not leading out means I think we miss out too often on getting value.

This is a scary board, the original raiser is unlikley to make a cbet with a miss or a single pair hand and anything better than that and they won't go away to a donk bet.




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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 07:53 PM
(#7)
KyeBuff's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Thanks for the opinions everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
PRE - with this deep 48BB i would have raised to 120,000 to get info from my opp and just to get rid away of the BB
The original raiser had a nitty opening range, AJs flops well.. 3Betting just makes the pot unnecessarily big out of position and I have to get rid if the pre flop raiser 4bets.

I totally agree with everyone though about leading the flop, It's not something I do enough in situations similar to this and I will be adding this to my game from now onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The real question for me is, what is manu's range when he flats the turn? I know you put that in your OP, but I think that his line looks very suspicious for someone who apparently has tightish stats.
I think the check on the flop and calling the turn looks more like a draw to me. We both should of made a bet on the flop, I was absolutely stunned to see queens. How does a flopped set, find a check on such a wet board 3 way? This is why I prefer check calling on the river, if he has a draw... he can bluff/give up when it bricks and if he has the monster... snap a smaller bet on the river, pot control should of been the first thing that came into my mind on that turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
How many hands in your assessment of his range can we rule out because he would have folded preflop? A lot, I think. And what we're left with is a lot of two pairs that become full houses on the turn.
This was the first time on his BB, that he was given good odds to call (due to shorter stacks shoving). He gets a very good price to call with all the hands, basically 6:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The only big difference in what I would have done is I would have folded preflop. The opener is in early (maybe mid, I forget) position and he's a tight player. Automuck imo.
I think I'm too much of a station to fold AJ pre here . I had a decent stack and I was running great at the time so I don't think I ever considered folding tbh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
This is a scary board, the original raiser is unlikley to make a cbet with a miss or a single pair hand and anything better than that and they won't go away to a donk bet.
Yea I agree, this is like the worse flop possible to cbet bluff and I can get action from hands that flopped hard also (like the QQ).

I guess not donking saved my ass big time though, as we're stacking off the flop if I do and I avoid a suck out... still I realise it would of been the right play.

Thanks for all your input, will definitely learn from this.
 

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