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Should I fear a 2 pair here? ($1.50 STT)

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Should I fear a 2 pair here? ($1.50 STT) - Fri Jan 06, 2012, 01:57 AM
(#1)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
Opponent has 66/0, stats passive post flop (can't find Agg factor on HEM just Agg % - 17%)

Earlier he beat my 99 with flopped 2 pair AA88 for a medium pot (after limping UTG), so I made a note likes Medium aces, then this - I was not surprised to see 2 pair again. Should I just not worry about it or should I when I see a player who likes middle aces?


Last edited by Jamster81; Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 02:03 AM..
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 02:33 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You beat Ax as a range. Since two pair is just a weaker ace that is beating you anyway, all you need to do is count the aces you're beating. If that number is higher than the aces you're losing to, then that's a good suggestion that betting is profitable.

You beat:
A2 A3 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 (seven aces)

You're losing to:
A9 AT AQ AK (four aces)

Since I'd expect any ace to call you down, you have nothing to worry about. You're picking up about double the value from worse aces that you're losing to better ones. If this guy will call you down with a weaker pair or a draw, that's even more money in the bank for you.

Also, with passive players behind you, I'd recommend just shoving this preflop. Minraising can be fine under very specific table circumstances, but on ~11bb, and especially if the table is passive and likely to call with weaker aces, just open shove for value.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 07:55 AM
(#3)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
+1 to Panicky. We cannot put chips in this pot to encourage players behind to come along when we only have 11 bb's. Ask yourself "if I miss this flop can I fold" if the answer is yes then fold pre and don't burn your stack. I'm not suggesting you fold btw this is an all in pre move.
If you havn't watched Spacegravy videos I suggest you do especially part 3 where he gives you a range that can be played 10 bb's and under.
That range in LP includes A2s+, A5o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+,JTo

Last edited by 19honu62; Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 08:08 AM..
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 01:53 PM
(#4)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
+1 to Panicky. We cannot put chips in this pot to encourage players behind to come along when we only have 11 bb's. Ask yourself "if I miss this flop can I fold" if the answer is yes then fold pre and don't burn your stack. I'm not suggesting you fold btw this is an all in pre move.
If you havn't watched Spacegravy videos I suggest you do especially part 3 where he gives you a range that can be played 10 bb's and under.
That range in LP includes A2s+, A5o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+,JTo
Side note - one annoying thing with HEM is looking at the replayer for this hand I can't switch the filters off quickly, so it looks like I would have to turn all the filters off one by one (stats by number of players) to get overall stats every time I wanted to get stats to post on forum. Other than that I much prefer it to PT3.

However going through the opponents tab CO is 12/7, Button 66/0, SB is 40/13, but BB is 15/6 for all hands so far in this tournament.

The reason for the minraise not shove is the (hopefully) skill equity meaning I can wait it out unless when it's close to break even to shove. I'm usually rocking it up to a certain point, usually with 5 players left as the bad players keep knocking each other out to the last 6, 5, 4, sometimes 3.

I have watched spacegravy's videos and noted those pushing ranges, but not following them closely when there are multiple very loose bad players at the table as I've said. Still, not afraid to shove once it gets under 10BB. If I had 850 or 900 chips here I probably would have gone ahead and shoved, no way I would call or minraise.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 01:57 PM
(#5)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
You beat Ax as a range. Since two pair is just a weaker ace that is beating you anyway, all you need to do is count the aces you're beating. If that number is higher than the aces you're losing to, then that's a good suggestion that betting is profitable.

You beat:
A2 A3 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 (seven aces)

You're losing to:
A9 AT AQ AK (four aces)

Since I'd expect any ace to call you down, you have nothing to worry about. You're picking up about double the value from worse aces that you're losing to better ones. If this guy will call you down with a weaker pair or a draw, that's even more money in the bank for you.

Also, with passive players behind you, I'd recommend just shoving this preflop. Minraising can be fine under very specific table circumstances, but on ~11bb, and especially if the table is passive and likely to call with weaker aces, just open shove for value.
My thoughts were during, I don't know if he plays small aces as well, and if he does, I don't expect he is calling with small aces equally regardless of my bet size. Maybe I should assume any ace ay time though for the loosest players.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 02:12 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamster81 View Post
The reason for the minraise not shove is the (hopefully) skill equity meaning I can wait it out unless when it's close to break even to shove. I'm usually rocking it up to a certain point, usually with 5 players left as the bad players keep knocking each other out to the last 6, 5, 4, sometimes 3.
Minraising is just inviting people to call behind, and watch you make difficult choices with an awkward pot size when you don't flop anything. You can't be exerting much postflop skill when you're 11bb deep. Missing shove spots like this is unnecessary even with bad players around you. Even if they're bad, you can still blind out. So you need to be shoving sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamster81 View Post
I have watched spacegravy's videos and noted those pushing ranges, but not following them closely when there are multiple very loose bad players at the table as I've said. Still, not afraid to shove once it gets under 10BB. If I had 850 or 900 chips here I probably would have gone ahead and shoved, no way I would call or minraise.
If there are passive players behind you who will call too wide, then the correct thing to do is to slightly tighten the shoving ranges that are normally profitable. Chris said that A5o is roughly what should be the bottom of your shoving range. You're allowed to adjust by tightening that, but when you do adjust, I think you'll find that AJ is still a shove.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 03:24 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Minraising is just inviting people to call behind, and watch you make difficult choices with an awkward pot size when you don't flop anything.
+1

If I were playing the hand, especially knowing that at least one opp behind me liked playing weak aces, depending on my reads for the others behind, there are two ways I'd might play it.

First, the one that I would use most often, shove preflop, as you put more pressure on the other opps and maximize your fold equity. Plus, this way you don't have to make a decision out of position on the flop.

The other would be to std raise, then shove any flop. Unfortunately, in this situation the opp would see that they hit 2 pair and instantly call, but if you have a really wide ranged opp along with others that could call very wide, I would consider this option in some cases.


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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 03:44 PM
(#8)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
save yourself from trouble with 10BB's all you need to do is shove

i even shove with any 2 here even w Q5o and then pray for a double up

min raising w 10BB is not good on any under circumstances

i like what our great teacher said, raise 3BB then shove any flop maybe i will do it sometimes
but i love the shove better it's easier
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 03:56 PM
(#9)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Minraising is just inviting people to call behind, and watch you make difficult choices with an awkward pot size when you don't flop anything. You can't be exerting much postflop skill when you're 11bb deep. Missing shove spots like this is unnecessary even with bad players around you. Even if they're bad, you can still blind out. So you need to be shoving sometimes.



If there are passive players behind you who will call too wide, then the correct thing to do is to slightly tighten the shoving ranges that are normally profitable. Chris said that A5o is roughly what should be the bottom of your shoving range. You're allowed to adjust by tightening that, but when you do adjust, I think you'll find that AJ is still a shove.
My plan was for the caller to call as I expected for the hand then the sort of flop I wanted, I did want a call here and didn't care about going down to 8.9bb at the start of 50/100, but I accept what you guys are saying. I plugged the numbers into sngwiz adjusted the playertypes and AJ was teh weakest ace it said to push, so maybe closer to breakeven than you guys would expect?
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:16 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If SNG Wiz were to advise against a shove, then the conventional play would be a fold in this situation. But for sure, I don't see shoving here being super massive EV, just a standard shove imo. If you're fine open/folding 11bb or opening and fit-or-folding the flop, then go ahead. It just doesn't sound any better than shoving to me.
 

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