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Outflopped. - Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:50 AM
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
Over 13hands at the table with this opponent he played in almost half of them.

I had only played in 2hands during this time.

Are you shoving here vs this player? I was outflopped here. What do you put this opponent on?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Last edited by rule110; Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 05:17 AM..
Fri Jan 06, 2012, 07:36 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Thank you for the Hand post:

Again Rule110, with a hand like this I doubt I am shoving, but with a read as loose as you are giving, I am almost never folding either.

I will do all I can to keep feeding value into the pot for sure, but there is really no need for immediately shoving versus the extreme player type that you describe.

There is really no way a player you describe is EVER folding a Q on this board. If that is the case, I can feed my value in at my leisure, and do not have to rush it in all at once. The type of player that a move like this would tend to work better against is the type who CAN fold a top pair hand if further "threats" appear, but who also has difficulties folding a top pair hand without apparent threats like 3 to a flush or straight.

Pre Flop:

Obviously your raise is fine. 1 limper, and you make it 4BB to go. I am guessing you are using a 3bb open raise standard, so this action is right in line with that.


You have every reason to expect you are ahead versus the reads you have, and you bet a bit over half pot (15c into a 22c pot). The villain here raises, making it 45c to go. I am never folding here versus someone as wide as this guy probably is. Consider...

1) There is too much chance he is simply over valuing a Q
2) He may well have a set and have me drawing thinly, but with a near 50% VPiP, combinatronically it is far likelier that he has flopped some weird 2 pair here if he out flopped me; I have outs to win a pretty big pot if that is the case.
3) There is an outside change a guy this wild enough to bet betting a flush draw only (assuming he is not only loose, but aggro too).

I think I prefer a flat here, simply because the SPR with the effective stack here is under 2 after his raise, and that makes it a no brainer for me to commit on the river no matter what he does.

So there is no need to get all in right now, and at least I have a CHANCE to check/call down to the 2 pair+ threat (until I improve at least, if I do) if the villain does not want to put all his chips in.

Turn and later:

As played, your decisions are moot; all the chips are already in.

So in my opinion, versus a very WIDE range here, there are possible threats even to your major over pair. while those threats are really not enough to cause me to fold here, ever, there is also no need against this villain's aggressive actions to really rush value in either. The value is getting in there for you if you are ahead, so there is really no reason not to leave yourself some tiny bit of room to SAVE chips if you did get out flopped.

Hope it helps.


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 07:50 AM..
Sun Jan 08, 2012, 02:25 AM
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
this hand is similar to the hand between Barry Greenstein and Tom Dwan on High Stakes Poker when Dwan's KsQs cracks Greenstein's AA. Only i held KK and my opponent held QJhh

In the tv hand the action goes,

No Limit Hold 'em. $500/$1000 blinds w/ $200 ante. 7handed. pot size

Elezra folds Tc5h
Sahamies folds Jc4h
Negreanu folds 8d2d
Easgate raises to $3500 w/ AsKh
Greenstein rr to $15000 w/ AdAc
Dwan calls $14500 KsQs
Benyamine folds
Eastgate calls $11500

Pot $47400

flop 4s2sQh

Dwan bets $28700
Eastgate folds.
Greenstein raises to $100000
Dwan rr $244600
Greenstein 4bets Dwan ai to call to $436100 total
Dwan calls allin.

Pot $919600

turn Qc,

river 7d.

when Greenstein commits about a 1/4.5 of his stack 3betting Dwan, dwan 4BETS to $244600 because he prolly has a ton of outs, and Greenstein is committed and 5bets Dwan allin.

So maybe when I get 3bet on this flop the best play would be to 4bet to about $1.1, 2.4x the 3bet, oc I can never fold after doing this. And I can never be drawing dead here on this flop. I can catch a K.

Last edited by rule110; Sun Jan 08, 2012 at 02:32 AM..

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