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Q: to live trainers

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Q: to live trainers - Fri Jan 06, 2012, 09:08 AM
(#1)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Hi there gods oops i mean guys

This might seem abit of a strange question but its been bugging me for weeks now.
Does being a live trainer effect your everyday game? by this i'm not just on about the time and effort issues, any op with half a brain has a wealth of information on you, from forum topics to videos how do u combat this, do u only do live sessions of stakes u have already beat or is there there more to it?
Sorry to be a pest but i'm really interested in this, everytime i post a reply to a topic or start a topic i'm giving abit of information away, and isn,t having info on your ops the name of the game.

I'm just trying to understand how your minds tick because one day i wanna be like you, dont we all lol.
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 11:37 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
Hi PokerPest,

It's a great question, having done training in some form or another for several years now I can give you my perspective in this regard. I think the question you're getting at is, does a trainer's regular game get tougher for them specifically because people can get info on how they think and play from their training/videos. In my experience the answer is no, probably not.

For starters, the vast majority of opponents we play against never even see our training, the player pools are large enough and there's plenty of recreational players, but even the regs probably only a fraction see our training (and as you note they are most likely to have valid reads anyway regardless). There have been a few times where I was playing an opponent who I knew was familiar with me and had attended classes, and that's ok too. Part of my job as a player is recognizing when someone has made an adjustment to me based on reads/info they have, and to re-adjust to counter when necessary.

So the bottom line is, it just doesn't matter enough to my game to bother me. In fact the benefits of teaching for me far outweigh this concern (they say to truly understand something, teach it to others... the concepts and ideas I teach in my classes are not revolutionary or super secret stuff, but some of them are hard to get your head around for sure. Putting them into lessons and teaching to others has helped me crystallize my own thoughts around many of these concepts).

I have actually thought about this question from the ultimate "spot"... let's say I'm lucky enough to make the November 9. Now I would have 8 savvy opponents with a 4 month layoff looking to gather any info on me they can get, with the biggest money in poker tournaments on the line. Would I want PSO and PokerStars to disable all my stuff for 4 months, to prevent them from reviewing all this info on me? My first thought is yes, that would be prudent... after all that's quite different from my regular game vs. mostly players that don't even know I do training. It's 8 smart players who will all be looking to gather any tidbit they can. But ultimately if they did have access to all this info, it's not a disaster either... I know what the info is they've seen in this case, and will take that into account and try to adjust accordingly when appropriate. Again, nothing I teach is top secret knowledge, most of the Nov 9 field would know these concepts and maybe more anyway. And it's my job to take what I know (and what I know my opponents know) and adjust appropriately.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 12:28 PM
(#3)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Thankyou Dave for taking the time to respond to me, i was really hoping you replied, for the sheer amount of training videos you have put out there, i cannot attend live training because of time zone diff but i watch your videos like a hawk and look forward to your next lessons.

GL at the tables Sir!
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 01:53 PM
(#4)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
I thought I'd put in my 2c also.

The playing field at pokerstars is huge, so I don't bump into students very often.

When I do, I play a TAG style as it is, so not too easy to really derail. But I'm always on the lookout for players who are trying to pressure me alot. Recognising the name, whether from training or as a reg in the game, just makes me watch them a bit closer Knowing what their image of me is, is also valuable information.

I also aren't really in poker for the money anyway so even if I did take a hit on the tables. I wouldn't mind too much, I just enjoy the competition.




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:53 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I'm not a trainer, but as a hand analyzer I put out a lot of info on how I "think" about poker too. For this reason, if the OP does not mind, I'd like to weigh in too...

I have stated numerous times in posts I've put up (usually those dug up from the old general forum), that the reason I put out info in the forum is NOT to feed my ego, but because first and foremost thinking deeply enough to post on something allows me to "study" an issue from multiple sides to get a better feel for it.

I been accused of writing "mega posts" (and rightly so! ), but that is largely a function of my effort put into thinking about the application of a specific idea. So anything I write helps ME first of all...the fact it might help others is just a side benefit that makes me feel like I'm giving something back to a forum that has given so much to me.

Too me, the info I give out in the forum about my play is merely 1 facet of the poker "ooda loop" (see link here for explaination: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop ).

If you click that link, you will see that strategic decisions in a fluid environment consist of multiple factors:

Your observations (firs "O" in ooda) hinge on...

1) implicit guidance and control (or in poker terms, your base knowledge of the game)

2) unfolding circumstances (or all the factors which bear upon your situation, your hand strength, possible hand strength of opp, your chance to improve, amount in the pot vs amount you have to call, etc)

3) Outside information (things like table tells, and my forum posts)

4) Unfolding interaction with the environment (how your image might effect the decisions of others)

Your orientation with your observations (2nd "O") consists of essentially weighing as MANY factors as possible in order to arrive at a DECISION. My posts are just one factor you've observed which helps you orient yourself toward a decision which might derive you the best expected value.

Once you've weighed all your options in light of the expected value of the outcome, you then DECIDE which is best for you in this situation. (the "D" in ooda)

You the make your ACTION (the "a")...and whatever happens after that you, re-assess the effect and start the process all over again.

The info I put out in the forums is really just a small part of the overall data that a poker player should, consciously or un-consciously, be using to form his decision and actions. A player who "needs" the extra info I give in the forum, otherwise he could not make the observations to acquire it, probably lacks other skills necessarily to make a sophisticated poker ooda loop; in short, the extra info in the forum is probably only going to confuse him rather than help him.

A player who is capable of observing my play, and effectively adjusting to it, probably does not need very long at all to arrive at the info anyway. At most, against him I am only concedeing a short term advantage.

That short term advantage I might give in the rare circumstance I am playing against someone who reads my posts is not enough to cause me to give up the great benefit to my own clarity of thought on poker that posting gives.

So here is another mega post that could probably be summed up like this...

The players best able to USE against me the info I put out in the forums, are precisely the SAME players who least "need" the info to adjust to me.

The players who NEED the info I put out in the forums to adjust to me, are the players who are likely to be the least able to effectively USE the info to adjust to me.

When these 2 things are combined, there is a very SMALL -eV for me in posting in terms of how opp's might use the info I post to adjust to me.

When this small -eV is combined with the +eV I get in terms of the clarity of thought posting helps me achieve, the overall equation yields +eV for me...

...and that's why I post.



Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 05:01 PM..
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 05:07 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
JD put a post in here, so I'll put one in too (sent to original poster earlier).

PokerPest,

I'm not one of the trainers, but since I reply to a number of the hand analyses, I know that I always give an honest opinion in every single one of them and try to put myself into the poster's shoes.
I also, when doing my HA's, do not watch the whole hand thru before analyzing them, I go step-by-step thru the hand, so that I'm always in the poster's shoes.

Since I do put what I would do into each and every one of them, I know that if I ever saw any of the people at the tables, that they potentially could use this against me. I don't worry about it at all, as before black friday in the US, I was a regular player in the PSO skill league, so I was playing with everyone multiple times on a daily basis.
Could in a particular situation someone use that against me and pick up a pot, yeah, but I know that if I'm making the correct decision in as many hands as possible, and making my bets consistant (so opps can't get a read from them), then I'll end up ahead in the long run and due to that, it doesn't bother me at all.

I want to pass along to any of the others that want to learn, any and all of the information that I've learned or been taught over the years. I do the HA's because I enjoy doing them and want to help others. Always been that way, always will.

Live, which I play a number of daily casino tourneys every year and occasionally a WSOP Circuit event, I know that I've only run into two PSO players in my tourneys and neither of them were ever at my table.
However, that could change next month, as there's a good possibility that there will be 2 PSO members that could easily be AT my table. I'll do everything I can to take their chips, just like they'll do whatever they can to get mine. If I make the better decisions, I'll win, if they do, they'll win.

Very interesting question though

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 07:20 AM
(#7)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Thanks guys i,m loving this info.
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 08:37 AM
(#8)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Interesting question!

This may be a little subjective, but from my experience making regular videos and live sessions at microstakes levels there are two types of reactions I get from people who recognize me saying hi in chat etc.:

- tighter players tend to get a Iot toghter against my bets folding too much and actually showing up with the nuts only when money goes in
- looser players tend to be much more suspicious of my bets, fighting back, bluffing more or peeling longshots to stack me

Again, this might be a samplesize issue and only an impression - but I definitely keep that in mind when playing live on microstakes with people who recognize me and talk to me in chat.

Once I move up beyond micros this isnt much of an issue at all, at least not with recreational players. Most regs there know each other quite well anyway and whole different dynamics apply.

I dont think that any of the regs at my levels watch or are remotely interested in my videos at all cause I mainly cover how to beat microstakes levels. However, I wouldnt do coaching, training or videos on my regular stakes cause that could potentially (although not too likely) hurt my bottom line.

Another aspect to consider is that poker is a complex game with so many components to it - strategy is only one of them. Even if a player knows my take on certain situations it wont really help him that much when the circumstances are different each time - e.g. dynamics, board textures, stacksizes, tilt etc.

- Felix


Live Trainer




Last edited by PSO-xflixx; Sat Jan 07, 2012 at 08:43 AM..
 
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Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:14 AM
(#9)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Thanks Felix for the info, i have really enjoyed reading this thread
 

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