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My bad or his?

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My bad or his? - Sat Jan 07, 2012, 04:35 AM
(#1)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Hand 38, $1.50 27man SnG



Personally, I probably would have mucked his A2 to the preflop raise, and I have no idea why he decided to call the flop bet with the ducks...

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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 05:00 AM
(#2)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
you did what you need to do

the turn made it worst for you

i would have done the same thing

i can never get away
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 11:49 AM
(#3)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
your pf raise was too small, imo.

depending on your stats i might have played it the same way in his place once i decided to limp utg+1 (which i wouldn't).

Last edited by Django66; Sat Jan 07, 2012 at 11:52 AM..
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 03:50 PM
(#4)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Why is the preflop raise too small? I tend to start off at 3x when the blinds are small, and 2.5x when the blinds climb up. It was folded to me, so a 2.5x raise would seem normal. To people who are looking at my bet sizing, they'll see me raise the same amount every time. I could make it a 3x standard of course, but when watching TV (yeah, whole different ballgame, but still), they're saying the 3x raise is pretty much out these days.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 03:56 PM
(#5)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Why is the preflop raise too small? I tend to start off at 3x when the blinds are small, and 2.5x when the blinds climb up. It was folded to me, so a 2.5x raise would seem normal. To people who are looking at my bet sizing, they'll see me raise the same amount every time. I could make it a 3x standard of course, but when watching TV (yeah, whole different ballgame, but still), they're saying the 3x raise is pretty much out these days.

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because the extra limper gets 3 to 1 for his money, 150 to call, 450 to win.

your raise is fine as a blind steal but with the limper i'll raise a bit more, jmho.

i'll bet something like 3.2 x personally.

Last edited by Django66; Sat Jan 07, 2012 at 03:59 PM..
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 03:58 PM
(#6)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Why is the preflop raise too small? I tend to start off at 3x when the blinds are small, and 2.5x when the blinds climb up. It was folded to me, so a 2.5x raise would seem normal.
It wasn't folded to you. Villain in UTG+1 limped. As a rule of thumb, you should add 1BB per limper to your raise to charge him (and in this case the BB who's left to act) to see a flop.
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 04:00 PM
(#7)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
You're right, I missed the limper when I wrote this.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 05:23 PM
(#8)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Django66 View Post
your pf raise was too small, imo.

depending on your stats i might have played it the same way in his place once i decided to limp utg+1 (which i wouldn't).
i agree looking back i should have been 350 because your in the small blind
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 07:06 PM
(#9)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Hey Ov3rsight good to see you posting these diffcult spots.

The others above have already pointed out and we agree now that we should make it 350 so that's cool. Now we don't know if he calls the larger raise but lets assume he does and likely will. We are making this raise because we have a premium hand, we have a stack but we are out of position.
When we bet we are trying to think of each street ahead of time and so reads are key! This is a 27 man and we are level 4 and you have 6400 chips and he has a little better than doubled through. So what have we observed him do and more importantly what has he observed you do to get here? Have you played solid and tight and run well or have you been loose flopped well etc.
I ask this because you comment " i have no idea why he decided to call a flop bet with ducks" Maybe he has a read on you and is using a HUD as many players do or maybe he is just a donkey. Your hands you post sem solid so we will assume the latter but it gives room for you to analyse your own play as we shouls all be doing.
Okay so the flop we miss and we cbet which is standard right but I prefer to vary my flop bets to less than 1/2 pot to 3/4 depending on my reads of my opponent and depending how I flop. We are out of position here and our flop bet brings yet another call. At $1.50 27 man these players tend to play Loose passive so when he calls our flop we should be cautious that he has hit a part of it knowing we have Ace high and he is in postion on us.
The turn hits us but we have assumed he is a weak player by his pre and post flats and this could have hit alot of his A 2, A4 Ax really. Most of the time we do not get a jam all in at this level on pure air and so we can assume he has hit mabye even a set!
We have fired two barrels and he jams! Doesn't usually mean weakness but since we are getting pot odds to make this call, and we have a stack that is still viable.
I like to make the flop and turn bets smaller here as we can always get away from this hand OOP by controlling the pot.
Texas Dolly has always said he loses less money with AKs than with AA or KK becasue he can get away from them when he misses.


 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 07:27 PM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Hi Ov3rsight, you're not going to like it, but it definitely wasn't his bad.

Preflop, limping is probably a better play than raising like that. Making a small raise just builds a big pot out of position with a top/top type hand. Your hand will of course play well postflop, particularly since it's suited. And there will be a lot more you can semibluff on with like two overs and a nut flush draw. If you're going to raise a raise to a larger size is going to be a better choice, something around 350 is fine. Since you're out of position you may want to try to end the hand early, so a bigger raise is better here. Plus it sets up a lower SPR making it easier and more correct to commit on one pair postflop.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think your opponent played the hand perfectly. While the limp/call preflop is a little questionable, I can definitely see merit to that line. I'd be more likely to that with a hand like KJs that plays really well postflop and I don't want to get 3-bet off, but it's really not bad. And he has position. Postflop he definitely does everything right.

After raising preflop you're usually expected to C-bet here. It's a very dry flop and it's unlikely to have hit your opponent's range. At the same time, your range is very top heavy, so it's unlikely to have hit you either. Sure you might have a pocket pair, but a lot of your range is big aces. WIth a pair and a backdoor nut flush draw this is a pretty textbook spot to float. Most of the time you have nothing and will give up on the turn. Plus any diamond gives him a huge draw, and if he hits his ace, he can expect to stack your top pair top kicker. If you have a hand like JJ-KK, an ace gives him the best hand, and you probably won't credit him with one anyway and he might squeeze a river bet out of ya. He could raise, but if you 3-bet he's forced to fold. And folding is too weak given that you've probably missed AND he has position and can see what you do on the turn.

On the turn you spike and he hits his two pair. You make a committing bet and he has an easy shove, since again your range is very top heavy. He can now beat almost all of your range, AND you will call with most of it too!

So he played the hand very well. Does this mean you played it bad? Well on the super dry flop you have two overs and backdoor broadway. You often do have the best hand, and will probably never get a better hand to fold (except maybe 33 or 55) but all those 98s and 65s type hands have pretty decent equity against you so it's worth betting to fold them out. Is your opponent the kind who will bluff if you check to him? This is a dry board and it's really hard for him to have anything, so you could actually consider check/raising if he will do that. So C-betting is fine here but I also think check/raising is. Check/calling to float out of position is just too sophisticated, so I don't recommend it. I've gotten myself into quite a bit of trouble with that play.

On the turn you spike and lead. Firing again on your hand is pretty standard but I don't think you want to make it too large. In fact, checking may be better. You don't want to look super strong. Because if you do he folds almost all of his weaker hands and shoves his strong ones. When you get raised here after betting so big you have to be hating life. You've put so much in that you're committed, and you look so strong, that when he raises you you should be scared. But can you fold? You need to call 1930 to win 4930, so you're getting 2.55 to 1 odds on a call. You only need to win 28% of the time to break even. Is about a third of his range behind you? Then you really should consider calling. If he has two pair, then you have at least 9 outs to improve! If he has a set you're dead. Are there any hands that you're ahead of or flipping with? Any AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ, , 35, other flush draws, etc.? If there's a decent amount of this you definitely have to call even though you will be behind a lot. Because of this you should consider making a smaller turn bet or even just checking. By just checking or betting smaller you look weaker, and can get more value from the bad hands in your opponent's range and not just the ones that have you crushed. And if he's still only pushing a really strong range, now you have odds to fold. If he's stationy then clearly we're betting here for value from Tx, 55-99, etc. but forced to fold to his shove as he always has us crushed.

The idea of putting in 2000 chips from my 6400 chip stack and folding isn't very appealing, so I'd probably bet a much smaller amount here. Instead of 850 I'd consider a tiny bet of around 450. I think this would get an aggro player to jam a wider range with fold equity and give us bad odds to call if a passive player shoves.


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