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How badly did I play this KK?

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How badly did I play this KK? - Sat Jan 07, 2012, 12:26 PM
(#1)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
The other guy in the hand was calling alot previously, so, although I was wary of the 33, I thought he might be on a Big Slick, not a straight,....what would you have done? many thanks Richard

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 12:56 PM
(#2)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Hindsight is always easy, but here goes:
First, I personally don't like the minraise, not this early in a tournament. You're making it way to cheap for people already in the pot to call.
Same goes for the flop - he minbets 30 into 165, that shows weakness, but a minraise imho does too. And again - you're giving him over 6 to 1. That's pricing him in to go chase a gutshot or a backdoor flush as well as the flush.
Turn, same thing. minbet from him, which is ridiculous, and minraise, giving him almost 12 to 1 to make the call. If I know upfront I'm getting those odds, I'm not laying it down even if I know you'd have the kings, no matter what I have, a 7, a 5 or a flush draw. In the 7,5 case, I got a 7% chance of hitting a set on the river, and you're pricing me in there to go chase it.
That said - I doubt there'd be any point in the hand where he's gonna fold the jacks. A good player might be able to, but I doubt it with the way the betting went down.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 01:05 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
1) Don't put people on hands, put people on ranges. Whenever you put someone on Big Slick, you're falling into a mental trap of looking for convenient reasons to call, when logic may dictate a different course of action.

2) Be more aggressive with your bet sizing. Who cares if you scare off the guy's air range; at least you're not giving him odds to outdraw you. And when he does continue, at least you're winning a pot that actually means something to your stack.
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 02:03 PM
(#4)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
PRE - your raise is so small that you will have lots of opp and you don't want that with your KK

at 15/30 level my std raise is 4BB +1BB for the limper so that any opp wants to see the flop must pay and you got value for your monster and at the same time you will limit your opp to at least head's up

flop - your opp donks bet you need to bet at least 75% of the pot. The pot is 195 plus 30 you should bet 170

you dont want your opp to hit their cards that will easily beat you KK with just 1BB let him pay more
to stay in the hand. You want to get as much value as you an get by min raising you lose too much value and you give your opp a great chance to hit his card

turn - 285 plus 30 bet by opp you should be betting 240 for value and protection of your hand

river - what can i say you let him get there

instead of you winning a small pot because your not raising enough for value you lose a big pot because your opp hit his card at the river and you can't get away with your hand you even might get busto here good thing your opp doesn't know that you got K's

you want a big pot for your monster hand and a small pot for a weak hand
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 02:03 PM
(#5)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
ok..but even now looking at his betting- I would still guess that he was hoping for an Ace or a King. Look at the bet he made when he hit trips. I still don't get it.

I still thought I had the best hand..........all the way, but wasn't 100% sure, as his betting was weird.

At least I didnt give him another 1000 chips.
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 02:06 PM
(#6)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
PRE - your raise is so small that you will have lots of opp and you don't want that with your KK

at 15/30 level my std raise is 4BB +1BB for the limper so that any opp wants to see the flop must pay and you got value for your monster and at the same time you will limit your opp to at least head's up

flop - your opp donks bet you need to bet at least 75% of the pot. The pot is 195 plus 30 you should bet 170

you dont want your opp to hit their cards that will easily beat you KK with just 1BB let him pay more
to stay in the hand. You want to get as much value as you an get by min raising you lose too much value and you give your opp a great chance to hit his card

turn - 285 plus 30 bet by opp you should be betting 240 for value and protection of your hand

river - what can i say you let him get there

instead of you winning a small pot because your not raising enough for value you lose a big pot because your opp hit his card at the river and you can't get away with your hand you even might get busto here good thing your opp doesn't know that you got K's

you want a big pot for your monster hand and a small pot for a weak hand
ok thanks for that......
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 05:27 PM
(#7)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
my inner puciek wants to come out here...j/k!
 
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Sat Jan 07, 2012, 08:58 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Richard,

Premium hands are always good to get, but they can be tricky early.

Preflop: UTG limps (which happens often at early levels) and it's folded around to KK. I would make a standard raise here (3BB+1BB for each limper for 4BB or 120). This helps to build a pot and to keep the hand concealed. It also hopefully thins the field some, as KK plays much better against less opponents.

Flop: 3 3 7 This flop can hit some of the limper's range. Limp/callers typically have a small/medium pair or an A with kicker problems. The limp/caller makes a min bet here. I'm value raising here every time with KK and would make just under a pot raise, a raise to 200. I'd want to raise more than min, so that the opp is not priced into a draw (gutshot straight or to low pkt pair). Most likely I have the best hand here and want to build a pot, as 33 or 77 should bet more as a lead bet or raise here.

Turn: 5 of spades With limping and small bets, this is another scare card, as 55 is well within the opp's range. The opp min bets again (should have expected it). I will value raise again here and see what happens and would make my raise about 2/3 pot or to 225.
I want the bet to be enough that it prices out a straight draw, as anyone with a 4 or 6 has a gutshot straight draw. By min-raising here, you actually make the call for the opp +EV if they have a gutshot straight (4 outs is 8% equity, but only has to put 30 chips into a pot that will be 405 which is 7.4%)
In the hand, the opp calls a min raise, which is expected.

River: J of spades the only hand in the opp's range that can now be ahead due to the river card is JJ. The opp min bets again (another surprise!). I would definitely raise their min bet here for value again. I'd make the bet about 1/2 pot or here, 225. The opp that was min betting everything suddenly raises to 800 (a raise larger than the pot size). That raise throws up a red flag for sure. They could be bluffing here, but they also could have hit a large hand because limp/calling preflop could easily have hit a set or more off of this board. AJ diamonds for a missed flush that hit two pair on the river fits their pattern too, but if it were me, I'd have raised with it preflop. In this situation, I with that large of a bet that was out of character by the opp, I'm folding.

I think that that a better line to take here is to std raise preflop, then value raise the flop and turn. With KK, you want to get more chips into the pot quicker, so that the opp can't see that they hit the board before putting their chips in. Unfortunately, here the opp got to see all the cards and got lucky and hit one of them.

Also, early in a tourney, you will see this type of player over and over that will limp or min bet/call all the way down with any ace, any suited, any pair, etc. When you're up against one of them, I try to do whatever I can to get their chips in as soon as possible, when I'm a large favorite in a hand, but make the bets in a sequence and size that makes sense, just like I would do with any other hand I'm betting here.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables!

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 08, 2012, 12:01 AM
(#9)
WeaselBasher's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,138
Thank you John!

Richard
 

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