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4bet on the flop and I hold a set

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4bet on the flop and I hold a set - Sun Jan 08, 2012, 03:51 AM
(#1)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
no real reads on this player yet, I may have seen him showdown a less than stellar holding, third pair on the board, betting the flop and maybe the turn.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

are you always getting it in here because when he four bets the flop he is usually bluffing?
 
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Sun Jan 08, 2012, 01:02 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi rule,

First I'm not really understanding the question since he didn't 4 bet the flop, you did. He bet (1st bet), you raised (2nd bet), he re-raised (3-bet), and you re-reraised (4b) all in.

I definitely don't agree that someone who 3 or 4 bets the flop is usually bluffing. In fact in my experiences the opposite is true, they usually are not bluffing. That said, a set is certainly a big pot hand and I'm quite happy to get it in on this board with him. He'll be taking this line with easily enough hands you're beating to make playing for stacks +EV. QJ for sure is in his range, weaker players will stack off strong 1 pair hands in this spot without a second thought, and of course he can sometimes be semi-bluffing or once in a while pure bluffing. If he happens to hold a bigger set then nh, but our equity vs. his over all flop 3b-bet/get it in range should be very good.

Dave


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Sun Jan 08, 2012, 05:09 PM
(#3)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
ty langolier,

i get confused about 3bettting and 4betting sometimes. I think i'm confusing this flop action with preflop action where there are forced bets in the blinds, because when someone raises pre that would be a 2bet and any rr aftr a 3bet.. etc
 
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Sun Jan 08, 2012, 06:06 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
ty langolier,

i get confused about 3bettting and 4betting sometimes. I think i'm confusing this flop action with preflop action where there are forced bets in the blinds, because when someone raises pre that would be a 2bet and any rr aftr a 3bet.. etc
Hi rule,

It's the same thing, the blind is still a bet, just a forced bet. I think the confusion comes in when people incorrectly call the first bet a raise (at least this is where I see it happening usually). You can't raise if there's no bet yet. The first action is always a "bet" (be it the BB preflop, or the first action post flop).

The way it works is like this:

Bet (1-bet)
Raise (2-bet)
Re-raise (3-bet)
Re-reraise (4-bet)
etc.

No one says 1-bet 2-bet, everyone says bet and raise for the first two, then switch to 3b, 4b, 5b instead of saying re-reraise, etc.

Hope it helps.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Sun Jan 08, 2012, 09:32 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi rule,

First I'm not really understanding the question since he didn't 4 bet the flop, you did. He bet (1st bet), you raised (2nd bet), he re-raised (3-bet), and you re-reraised (4b) all in.

I definitely don't agree that someone who 3 or 4 bets the flop is usually bluffing. In fact in my experiences the opposite is true, they usually are not bluffing. That said, a set is certainly a big pot hand and I'm quite happy to get it in on this board with him. He'll be taking this line with easily enough hands you're beating to make playing for stacks +EV. QJ for sure is in his range, weaker players will stack off strong 1 pair hands in this spot without a second thought, and of course he can sometimes be semi-bluffing or once in a while pure bluffing. If he happens to hold a bigger set then nh, but our equity vs. his over all flop 3b-bet/get it in range should be very good.

Dave
+1 to this in my opinion rule...

Pre flop you call a raise with a small pp on the btn. The 15c you are risking vs the 2.50+ effective stack here means that as long as you think this raiser will "go to the wall" on 1 pair type hands, this is a pretty good spot for you to set mine. Your read info is that he will at least BET something on less than top pair across multiple streets, so that is enough indication to give set mining a shot.

The way I'd be looking at this is NOT that he is "bluffing" if he raises, but rather that MY flop decision is really really simple for me: if I do not flop a set, I am hardly ever going to have a hand I'm going to lose more than 15c on. Plus, if I DO flop a set, this guy seems the type who will pay off on multiple streets.

I have to say that when the villain leads 15c on the flop, I do like your immediate raise to 45c. Your read is telling you he will bet on less than top pair, and if he has anything he is probably at least calling your raise now. Even if he is on a oesd here, you WANT that call, because in the long run you are way +eV on it.

When he 3bets though, I am not certain I like the shove from your end. Consider...

If there is ANY chance he will give up on this hand, the jam you made on a 4bet will allow him to find it. That means by jamming you are increasing the chance that you will lose the maximum if this opp has actually out flopped your hand.

I do not dis-agree at all with what Dave says: if this villain IS weak enough to launch his whole stack on a call with less, then getting your chips in now is great. But I am not quite sold on the fact that you can really say on the info you have that this guy will CALL his stack off lightly. To me, your info indicates that he will surely BET it off lightly though...

That means I think I'd be more inclined on this info to FLAT his 3bet on the flop, and then watch him make a turn bet, THEN get him to put the rest in.

Really though, this is a stylistic preference if your opp will not only bet off light, but also call off light. I only throw it out there to give you some possible alternate thoughts.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Jan 08, 2012 at 09:46 PM..
 

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