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First Hand $1.10 Tournament

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First Hand $1.10 Tournament - Mon Jan 09, 2012, 11:08 AM
(#1)
jonto15's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 26
First hand into the tournament and the following happens, when I think it over perhaps I should of just called the 20$ on the flop?

 
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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 01:02 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
There's no need to raise the flop, because it turns your hand into a bluff, unless you're willing to get it in with TPGK in a multiway pot. Callng is definitely the best play imo.

On the turn, you did make two pair, but someone else could easily have a straight, so I'd be very cautious here. Two streets of value should be fine, so if you're not going to check the flop, I think you should check the turn to slow down a bit.

On the river, I guess you have to fold to an overbet shove. Bully. Oh well, nh.
 
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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 01:15 PM
(#3)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
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This is exactly why KJ is known as a real trouble hand.

Calling the flop would have been fine and when the turn came it points to straights and flushes so you gotta be careful here. Two pair can easily be beat.

Considering that your Out of Position I think you played this pretty well despite the raise on the flop.

At this level of the tournament you still have a healthy stack to recover and have a deep run.

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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 01:23 PM
(#4)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Difference of opinion I guess

Flop: check to the raiser, always a nice play. I would raise the flop to about 80 or so. First off, if I flat I still don't know what Montana and finta have. If I raise and they reraise, I can muck my lone pair and know they probably have me beat. Folding with TP isn't an option yet, and flatting also invites the three players behind me to come in. Then - if I have the best hand now - I'll have 5 players who can outdraw me. Pretty much going to happen all the time. If I raise, I show some strength and should get at least 3 of the 5 other players in the pot to fold.
If my raise gets re-raised, I'm done with the hand. If it gets called, I know to be very careful on the turn if it's an ugly card. As it stands, you raised to 80, and 2 players fold, so we're still with 4.

The turn brings two pair and a flush draw. As the one having the lead, a bet is a good thing. Protect the two pair against the flush draw. Unfortunately, the straight already got there.The flush draw has about a 18% chance to hit, so you need to make the bet big enough to price them out. With your 260 bet into 440, you're giving a flushdraw 260/700 pot odds, or 37%, so that's pricing him out. Assuming these players are good enough to do the math, the draw should now fold. One caller, which unfortunately prices the flush draw in if that's finta's holding.

Two callers. At this point, I'd be very worried about what they may have. If the flush hits the river, I'm done.

The flop's another queen, which means I'm done. The straight is there, the flush got there, and should one of them have had something like AQ, he's got there too. Even worse - should the opponent have held AK, which is also popssible, our two pair are no good anymore. A bluff would mean having to put the rest of my stack in, and I doubt my hand's good enough enough of the times to n ake a shove here profitable. Check, and hope for showdown.

Alas, finta bets. I muck, better luck next time.

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keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com

Last edited by Ov3rsight; Mon Jan 09, 2012 at 01:41 PM..
 
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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 08:30 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi jonto,

My preference is actually to lead the flop for 50-75, rather than check. We have likely flopped the best hand, but there are plenty worse that can call and give us value. And with 5 opponents we don't want to risk giving a free card to Kx and Qx, gut shots and pocket pairs.

With the line you took checking, I am generally going to check-call. The raise to 80 isn't very likely to fold out anyone who already put 20 chips in, so all it does is bloat the pot... I don't like to bloat the pot out of position multi-way unless my hand strength warrants it, and i don't think ours does. So I like to check-call to keep the pot small in spots like this, and either get our hand to showdown cheaply, improve it (we can catch a K, J, or pick up a back door straight or flush draw on the turn), or leave ourselves an easy exit plan if things go south.

On the turn, I like your bet sizing. I'm not particularly worried about a straight as it would mean someone called a bet and check-raise on the flop with just a gut shot. But if we bet and someone raises big chances are very good our hand is beat (more likely by a slow played KQ or set than a straight, but still) and we can release, so I'd probably take a bet-fold line vs. random micro stakes players (vs. more savvy or tricky opponents, not so much as we'll be getting raised as a semi-bluff more often, and raised for thin value by QJ).

On the river I would have done the same thing you did. The Qs is the worst card in the deck, it basically gets everything there and counterfeits your 2 pair in the process. Nice job not making a frustration call here.

Dave


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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 08:34 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
With your 260 bet into 440, you're giving a flushdraw 260/700 pot odds, or 37%, so that's pricing him out. Assuming these players are good enough to do the math, the draw should now fold
It's a $1 mtt, I would assume most of them are not doing math and many of them don't even understand the math. It's still a good bet, to extract value from worse made hands and draws, but I wouldn't assume that a draw in the hands of a random $1 mtt'er would make a good fold, they will more likely make a bad call.

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Mon Jan 09, 2012, 08:56 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
My preference is actually to lead the flop for 50-75, rather than check. We have likely flopped the best hand, but there are plenty worse that can call and give us value. And with 5 opponents we don't want to risk giving a free card to Kx and Qx, gut shots and pocket pairs.

Dave
+1

That was exactly the first thing that I thought of too when I saw this hand.

I also like your play on the river. Very good fold.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 08:26 AM
(#8)
jonto15's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 26
Thanks to all for the different responses!

Cant wait to annoy your heads and post more!

Lee
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 05:23 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonto15 View Post
Thanks to all for the different responses!

Lee
Lee,

There are normally many different ways that a hand can be played. Seeing a number of varying responses is a good thing, as it lets people see how others would handle the same situation and gives them something to think about.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 06:11 PM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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You can't check to the raiser in a limped pot really. You can sometimes check to the limper, but there are too many people in this one to really expect a bluff. Just bet out and let the fish call you down. You can get value from all sorts of weaker kings and queens.

Turn gives you two pair and puts all sorts of dirty stuff out there. Still, unless he had AT or T9 or JJ you're still in pretty good shape here, but now there are even more draws to gain value from. Also, you passed AK. Nice bet.

The river is really terrible for you as everything gets there and your two pair is counterfeited. But can you still gain value from worse using a bet/fold line? What about those times he has KT or K9? I'm not saying you can but it is something to consider. Definitely folding the river to any aggression. Nice fold.

Quote:
With your 260 bet into 440, you're giving a flushdraw 260/700 pot odds, or 37%, so that's pricing him out. Assuming these players are good enough to do the math, the draw should now fold.
Implied odds make this a moot point. Not really in this spot, as it's going to be hard to get paid off, but if you can win enough when you hit your draw it doesn't really matter if your immediate pot odds aren't quite good enough.


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