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Queens, ugh

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Queens, ugh - Tue Jan 10, 2012, 05:40 AM
(#1)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
I actually would normally have folded this on the turn, but raised for the benefit of seeing his cards to post here. I find queens unplayable post flop in tournaments without a set because my postflop play is very weak. I didn't want to reraise preflop because I had no idea what I'd be up against multiway.

Someone please walk me through the hand.

 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 05:42 AM
(#2)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
p.s this is $3.50 regular speed 9man.

Szapi seemed a little loose early on.
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 06:19 AM
(#3)
Keldraco's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
my QQ run into AA, and KK alot of the time too but we still have to 3bet especially since you think the 1st raiser is loose. the 3bet also act as an isolation since there was another caller.

If i am going to 3bet, the normal size would be 3X the raiser + 1more for the caller, that would be 600, about 1/3 of our stack size. i need to get some opinion here should we raise 600 or shove?

I don't know about post flop since i'm also very weak
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 07:02 AM
(#4)
Jamster81's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
I wouldn't 4 bet or shove with Queens early on as I believe it's almost always aces, kings or AK with occasionally other aces. Not enough weak hands going all in early for queens even at these stakes.
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 07:25 AM
(#5)
taomage's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamster81 View Post
I find queens unplayable post flop in tournaments without a set because my postflop play is very weak. I didn't want to reraise preflop because I had no idea what I'd be up against multiway.
Did you had any reads on your opponents, because that could really change the desired play here.

Well just because of the fact you have no idea what you would be up against you should have raised, this will really narrow down the hands the opponents could play and makes it a way easier post flop + you want to get chips in the pot because you are most likely to have the best hand here.

I think with this flop you should definitely make a bet here, you really don't want J9 (example) to check to the turn here and find a Q on the turn because that would be devastating. Well anyway you decided to check and the cut-off makes a bet here. Well at this point you got a ask yourself 1 thing: Am I ahead of him? (this is where a read could make the difference) If the answer is yes then you should definitely raise here, but if you think you're behind then you should fold because the chance of improving are very low.

Well you called and the turn came with a 2 of spades. Well this is highly unlikely to improve the opponents hand so if you thought you were ahead of him at the flop you would still be here. So here you just want to bet him all-in. Again you decide to check and the opponent again makes a bet, this could still mean anything because we have no read on this guy. At this point it's either fold or go all-in, and you decide to go all-in which I think is a good decision if we have no read on this guy.

I would probably think he might have AT or KT suited in here but a set would also be a possibility (depending on the player), but he could easily play a lot wider range of cards and that's why you want to be more aggressive pre-flop.

Anyway that are my thoughts about this hand
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 08:22 AM
(#6)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
oh well unlucky there..

either ways, u shld of reraised preflop about 650 chips , and continue bet/or shove on flop (depends on ur stack).. the question is if he wld call that reraise with 88, but anyways this is what u want, that he calls u with his 88, but u were unlucky there that he hits a set, nothing u can do about it.

gl
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 08:57 AM
(#7)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamster81 View Post
I actually would normally have folded this on the turn, but raised for the benefit of seeing his cards to post here. Someone please walk me through the hand.
u definitely either need to raise this preflop or put out a c-bet, or both. u have QQ; that is a very select hand. only AA and KK beats u and no aces or kings came out on the flop. i find it interesting that u said u would normally fold this on the turn. that gives me a better idea of how u approach postflop play. i think u play a little too fearfully b/c there's really no way for u to know u are behind on the turn without having been the aggressor in the hand. if ur this scared to play QQ postflop, ur gonna be scared with a ton of hands that could be profitable to play in the right situations. it is not profitable to play QQ timidly and then assume u are losing on such a dry board such as here.
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 11:39 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi jamster,

Personally I think this is strong enough to 3-bet preflop for value. I think about 600ish is a good size. If we get a caller, we'll have roughly a pot sized bet and I'd be willing to commit on most flops. You made the statement that you didn't want to do this because you had no idea what you'd be up against multi-way, but most of their ranges are starting hands worse than QQ and with the pot already significant, I think a value raise is in order (it will not likely be multiway post flop, usually you will get zero or 1 caller).

On the flop, I'm willing to get all in with QQ with a low stack to pot ratio. The preflop raiser checks, and the first flat caller now bets. He's not likely to have KK/AA or he would have likely 3b preflop. Sure he can have a set, but he can also have plenty of worse 1 pair hands, so over all you rate to be a favorite against his range.

For example, look at it combinatorically:

If he holds a set, AT, or KT here-

There are 6 card combos of each set = 18 total combos
There 12 card combos of AT he can hold, and 12 of KT = 24 total combos

So vs. this range you would be a 24-18 (1.3-1) favorite to hold the best hand. Of course there are probably more hands in his range that he flats pre and now bets in position when checked to, but there are many more combos that are worse 1 pair hands, draws, or air than their are 2 pair+, so we're actually a bigger favorite than 1.3-1.

Lastly, you indicated you try to avoid post flop play as it's a weak point for you. This is sort of a catch 22 though... in order to improve your post flop play, you have to get experience playing post flop. So I would encourage you to embrace this as a challenge. Don't worry about making mistakes post flop, you'll make a lot of them (we all do, especially early in the learning process). Actually in this hand, 3-betting preflop removes the post flop play from consideration as it will either 1) and the hand immediately, 2) get you all in pre, or 3) leave less than a pot sized bet yet which means you'll be all in on the flop. So the point doesn't really relate to this hand since I would generally 3 bet for value preflop... but in a general sense (it's ok to move down in stakes for this to take money pressure off) it's not a bad idea to start putting yourself in more post flop situations to begin developing/strengthening this part of your game.

GL,
Dave


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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 02:03 PM
(#9)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
i agree with dave that you need to reraise here to 600

you don't need to know what's you opp hand here you got a hand that you want to get it all in PRE

then you just have to shove on the flop. you said your weak in post flop. in this way you don't need to play post flop.

agree with dave again,be able to be good in poker you need to challenge yourself to improve your post flop game. poker is all about post flop not pre flop

good luck
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 02:59 PM
(#10)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi jamster,

Personally I think this is strong enough to 3-bet preflop for value. I think about 600ish is a good size. If we get a caller, we'll have roughly a pot sized bet and I'd be willing to commit on most flops. You made the statement that you didn't want to do this because you had no idea what you'd be up against multi-way, but most of their ranges are starting hands worse than QQ and with the pot already significant, I think a value raise is in order (it will not likely be multiway post flop, usually you will get zero or 1 caller).

On the flop, I'm willing to get all in with QQ with a low stack to pot ratio. The preflop raiser checks, and the first flat caller now bets. He's not likely to have KK/AA or he would have likely 3b preflop. Sure he can have a set, but he can also have plenty of worse 1 pair hands, so over all you rate to be a favorite against his range.

For example, look at it combinatorically:

If he holds a set, AT, or KT here-

There are 6 card combos of each set = 18 total combos
There 12 card combos of AT he can hold, and 12 of KT = 24 total combos

So vs. this range you would be a 24-18 (1.3-1) favorite to hold the best hand. Of course there are probably more hands in his range that he flats pre and now bets in position when checked to, but there are many more combos that are worse 1 pair hands, draws, or air than their are 2 pair+, so we're actually a bigger favorite than 1.3-1.

Lastly, you indicated you try to avoid post flop play as it's a weak point for you. This is sort of a catch 22 though... in order to improve your post flop play, you have to get experience playing post flop. So I would encourage you to embrace this as a challenge. Don't worry about making mistakes post flop, you'll make a lot of them (we all do, especially early in the learning process). Actually in this hand, 3-betting preflop removes the post flop play from consideration as it will either 1) and the hand immediately, 2) get you all in pre, or 3) leave less than a pot sized bet yet which means you'll be all in on the flop. So the point doesn't really relate to this hand since I would generally 3 bet for value preflop... but in a general sense (it's ok to move down in stakes for this to take money pressure off) it's not a bad idea to start putting yourself in more post flop situations to begin developing/strengthening this part of your game.

GL,
Dave

that's why i love reading hand analysis very informative and really improve my game

i really have a hard time looking at all the combos plus add a little math in there

this is great.

Great work Teacher
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 03:33 PM
(#11)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaBBiiTGiiRL View Post
oh well unlucky there..

either ways, u shld of reraised preflop about 650 chips , and continue bet/or shove on flop (depends on ur stack).. the question is if he wld call that reraise with 88, but anyways this is what u want, that he calls u with his 88, but u were unlucky there that he hits a set, nothing u can do about it.

gl

keep playing ur strong hands like that and u will make profit of it in a long term
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 09:42 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post

Lastly, you indicated you try to avoid post flop play as it's a weak point for you. This is sort of a catch 22 though... in order to improve your post flop play, you have to get experience playing post flop. So I would encourage you to embrace this as a challenge. Don't worry about making mistakes post flop, you'll make a lot of them (we all do, especially early in the learning process). Actually in this hand, 3-betting preflop removes the post flop play from consideration as it will either 1) and the hand immediately, 2) get you all in pre, or 3) leave less than a pot sized bet yet which means you'll be all in on the flop. So the point doesn't really relate to this hand since I would generally 3 bet for value preflop... but in a general sense (it's ok to move down in stakes for this to take money pressure off) it's not a bad idea to start putting yourself in more post flop situations to begin developing/strengthening this part of your game.


I was saying in that thread about that book on tilt that I feel like there's an upside to being in a prolonged downswing in that it's been a great opportunity to gain more experience having a second best monster hand

Like I honestly believe that the money lost today is an investment made in the learning experience, and it'll be money saved in the future when these types of hands come up again?

My current project is getting experience playing against people who leverage position more actively, and/or who donk bet and 3bet a lot more - it's kind of not by choice because they've been trickling down into my entry-level games. But it's been an interesting learning experience - some of my 'experiments' have been pretty LOL ... but yeah I guess sometimes you don't know unless you try, eh?

GL on the tables! GL GL!!!

 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 09:54 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I got a lot of my 'game' from watching Langolier's training videos so it'd be my standard play with a pre-flop raiser and caller to 3bet for the reasons he laid out - it tends to get rid of the riff-raff (some of the time). And then yeah, I'd then lead out with a raise for the same reason (got my game from the Langolier).

OTOH, I could see how 'slowplaying' a monster could potentially garner more chips ... like if the other two in the pot are really aggro? If they were playing with Arag and made TP, then maybe with the strength of your hand masked you'd wind up collecting more chips than if they had folded pre-flop to a 3bet? But then I guess wouldn't that also make it more likely that QQ might wind up in situations such as this one - if your QQ is no good you'll have no way of knowing and you'll be the one to get stacked? Or if somebody with like JK or Ax cbets and then outdraws on the turn?

Like maybe they're two different approaches? I don't know ... I'm still learning myself
 

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