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punish the limpers

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punish the limpers - Tue Jan 10, 2012, 01:14 PM
(#1)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Maybe not so much a hand analysis wanted, more of a demonstration.
Short handed final table, limping is weak. It's been said before plenty of times. And from time to time, who cares if it's one or three limpers...



This tourney, final table, 5 left so all cash - I did this same trick on the guy directly to my right at least a dozen times. He completed the BB, I raise 3x, he folds. Yes, it is a profitable play, at least at these levels.
Well - it lasted until he figured it out and started just folding his SB...

See also today's blogpost

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keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 01:20 PM
(#2)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
2 limpers plus sb completed his blind personally I will bet around 1350 just to tell them hey i got a strong hand just fold.

but hey it worked for you so good job sir
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 03:44 PM
(#3)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
The betsize was indeed a tad smallish, shoulda been 300 more or so, but these guys were playing very tight all along. I was actually surprised the SB called. But then again - unless he flops it he's never gonna call the flop bet.
This was one of the few times where my raise actually got a call from the limper. Most the times they just mucked it.

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keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 04:23 PM
(#4)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Hi Ov3rsight, actually I want to concentrate on your postflop play.

Why bet the flop? I'd check it back for pot control and deception. Make it look like you have a middle pair or air, since really what worse hand calls on this dry board? If you get raised you have to fold and you have a gutshot too, which you really don't want to get blown off. Your hand is effectively the same as KK or QQ here. Think of how you would most likely play a hand like QQ and that's how you should play A5 on this board. You also don't really have to worry about giving a free card, since it's very unlikely that any hand of his can improve to beat you. If he has a pocket pair he has 2 outs, if he has a 3 he has 3 outs, if he has a 4 he has 5 outs max. If he's ahead he's pretty far ahead, although you may have a bunch of kicker and gutshot outs (ie. against AT which is never ever folding). So yeah I'd check behind on this flop and look to get value on the turn from bluffs and improved but still 2nd best hands.

When you want to bet, ask yourself what worse hands will call or what better hands will fold. Picking up dead money is a consideration too, but you should be more inclined to do that with your vulnerable hands, like 66 on this board. Think about your opponent's range. What does his preflop limp/calling range look like? It has a lot of mid pairs, suited stuff, and broadways, right? How likely is any of this to catch up to your ace? Not very. How likely is it to call a bet on the flop? Not very. Now if you have 66...how likely is it to catch up to your 66? Very. How likely is it to call a bet on the flop? Not very. Thus you should be more inclined to bet a hand like 66 to fold out all those QJs etc. hands.

Now if you're betting because you think he's likely to check/raise all in light, that's another story.


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by oriholic; Tue Jan 10, 2012 at 04:27 PM..
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:30 AM
(#5)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Hi, tx for the response. In response - I don't think I'm at that level of play yet. From time to time I'm pondering, and I do generally try to put ppl on a hand instead of blindly playing my own cards. On this flop, like I said, I wanted information mostly. Did he flop something or not?

I didn't think he'd raise me, I expect he would have done so preflop had he something worth raising, so I wasn't worried about getting shoved on. As for the gutshot, my days at FTP told me not to put too much value in a gutshot draw. lost far too much money on those. Of course here I could have seen a free turn and maybe hit the 3, and you're right, odds he'd turn 2 pair are slim, but still. I'm wondering if your train of thought isn't one step above the averga player of these levels.

The one person at this table I had pegged as above average is Tackyion - I'd made a not on his play and my guess of his skill about 30 hands before when he really seemed to be knowing exactly what to do. If he was in the pot, there's a chance I would have checked it.

My read on him was correct, he played great and took it down when we went heads up.

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keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 06:08 PM
(#6)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
I'm wondering if your train of thought isn't one step above the averga player of these levels.
That's the goal. You want to be thinking exactly one level above the other player(s). If they're just thinking about their hand, you should be thinking about their hand (range). If they're thinking about your range, you should be thinking about what they think about your range, etc. In this spot you can think about his range and notice that you're in a way ahead/way behind situation, where he's very unlikely to improve. Checking the flop back also allows him to bet many worse hands for you on the turn and river. He can value bet QQ and other mid pocket pairs, if he does have an ace you keep the pot small and lose the minimum while having a backup plan (kicker and gutshot outs). You can bet just about any turn for value if checked to. On the flop it's really hard to get called by anything worse and about impossible to make a better hand fold. Because of this checking seems far superior.


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 06:08 PM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
I didn't think he'd raise me, I expect he would have done so preflop had he something worth raising, so I wasn't worried about getting shoved on.
In his spot I'd check/raise you all-in. Now what do you do?


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by oriholic; Thu Jan 12, 2012 at 06:13 PM..
 
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Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:04 AM
(#8)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Muck.

ergo the lesson for me to learn would be not to raise with it if I intend to muck to a reraise?
 

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