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When you think monster are under your bed...

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When you think monster are under your bed... - Tue Jan 10, 2012, 07:01 PM
(#1)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
This was a very poor play by me... or maybe I have some point in thinking that at least one of them might have had a set? My thought was that at least one of them had started with a pair. Shoving preflop would have waved my day but I dont like shoving preflop much unless it is against someone who I know I have a read that does that with non premium.

PokerStars Hand #73637462979: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2012/01/10 18:31:46 ET
Table 'Kale VII' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: etipac ($3.79 in chips)
Seat 2: WunjoblissPS ($2 in chips)
Seat 3: Novastar69s ($5.61 in chips)
Seat 4: Struzzo I ($1.70 in chips)
Seat 5: Caesar0109 ($1.79 in chips)
Seat 6: braukliukas ($9.56 in chips)
Seat 7: Koala1975 ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 9: kastorsk185 ($3.13 in chips)
Novastar69s: posts small blind $0.02
Struzzo I: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to etipac [Kd Kc]
Caesar0109: folds
braukliukas: raises $0.15 to $0.20
Koala1975: calls $0.20
kastorsk185: folds
etipac: raises $0.55 to $0.75
WunjoblissPS: folds
Novastar69s: folds
Struzzo I: folds
braukliukas: calls $0.55
Koala1975: calls $0.55
*** FLOP *** [Th 3s Qh]
braukliukas: checks
Koala1975: checks
etipac: checks
*** TURN *** [Th 3s Qh] [2s]
braukliukas: bets $1.35
Koala1975: raises $2.95 to $4.30 and is all-in
etipac: folds
braukliukas: calls $2.95
*** RIVER *** [Th 3s Qh 2s] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
braukliukas: shows [Ad Qd] (a pair of Queens)
Koala1975: shows [Ac Qc] (a pair of Queens)
braukliukas collected $5.19 from pot
Koala1975 collected $5.19 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.92 | Rake $0.54
Board [Th 3s Qh 2s Jc]
Seat 1: etipac folded on the Turn
Seat 2: WunjoblissPS (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Novastar69s (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Struzzo I (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Caesar0109 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: braukliukas showed [Ad Qd] and won ($5.19) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: Koala1975 showed [Ac Qc] and won ($5.19) with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: kastorsk185 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Thanks
Etienne
 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 08:13 PM
(#2)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,026
(Community Coordinator)
Hi Etienne,

I would have liked to see you continuation bet the flop and try to control the pot.

Otherwise it's not bad fold on the turn.

The board is co-ordinated meaning it points to straights and flushes and with the heavy betting it looks like your opponents hit stronger than they actually did.

I'm sure some of the more experienced hand-analysers will be able to give you a better breakdown of this play.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 08:25 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hello Etipac, and welcome to the Cash Game Hand analysis forum!

In this spot, folding is not really a good idea in my opinion. If you have specific READS which tell you that one or both opponents would only bet or call with AA+ here, then it becomes marginally more acceptable (in my opinion), but that is a very specific case indeed, and you do not include that sort of info in your hand here.

Plus, even if you have reads which would lead you to that conclusion, raising pre flop on KK would probably not be ideal on your stack size (I say this because part of the info you'd need is that it is quite likely at least 1 player has AA). Consider...

You start the hand with $3.25, and raise it up to 75c pre flop with KK (as is reasonable over a raiser and a caller in almost all cases). What that action did for you was create a beneficial Stack to Pot ratio for you to get the REST of your stack in on any flop which sees your KK as an over pair (most of 'em will).

With 2 callers, the pot has grown to $2.25, and you only have $2.75 left in your stack. Your SPR going to the flop was just over 1. Any time an SPR is below 4 to 6, you should be prepared to put the rest of your chips on any top pair/top kicker or over pair hand. Even if you are not aware of SPR considerations (I cannot know if you are from your post here), you probably can see that this is a pretty LARGE pot by the time the flop comes, and that you have a LARGE number of your chips invested already (23%).

You really should have considered c-betting after you raised here in my opinion; afterall, KK as an over pair is what you'd most expect to see on this flop right?

Not C-betting here means that you are possibly allowing a free card to fall which beats you, OR you are allowing an "action killer" card to come, one which an opponent who may have called a bet on the flop would see as enough of a threat to fold to on the turn. If you are playing so EXTREMELY TIGHT yourself that about the only way you might extract value from opponents here is by checking instead of C-Betting, then I can reason reasons for that, but you do not give info on your own table image either.

I have found in my play experience, the larger a pot is, the more other players will tend to be reluctant to "give up" on that money. Sure, you could be beaten here by AA or a set, but because the pot is quite large hands like KQ or KJ (if the opps will call raises lite), JJ, AK, etc all may stick around BECAUSE the pot is so large. And obviously the hands they actually both had, AQ, fits in here too. when you do not C-Bet, you open the further possibility that you missed the flop and are ready to give up.

So altogether by not C-Betting, you open up a wider range of hands that opponents may now feel ok about value betting on the turn.

Added all up, there were plenty of things you were ahead of here that might get the turn action going like you saw after you checked the flop, and not a whole lot that beat you. With as much of your stack in as there was, and with the pot as large as it was, you really have to get 'em in on an over pair in my opinion...

...if they wake up with better, so be it.

Hope it helps!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Tue Jan 10, 2012 at 08:55 PM..
 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
(#4)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
I took AA out of the equation as usually you get reraised so I made them on a pair.. Yes issue is that for a second I lost concentration and got a bit scared.. I had to shove the flop or bet in a manner that I make them feel commited. One of them would have called me ehhhh. One last thing.. how do I paste the video version like you did?

Thanks
Etienne
 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalraise85 View Post
Hi Etienne,

I would have liked to see you continuation bet the flop and try to control the pot.

Otherwise it's not bad fold on the turn.

The board is co-ordinated meaning it points to straights and flushes and with the heavy betting it looks like your opponents hit stronger than they actually did.

I'm sure some of the more experienced hand-analysers will be able to give you a better breakdown of this play.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Raiser
Nice addition Royal Raiser!

The thing about your thought here, that the board is "coordinated" and that should be a reason to fold, is something I must dis-agree with.

The board is coordinated for the presence of DRAWS, not for made hands which beat the KK (the turn sees 2 possible flush draws, 2 oesd possible, and a variety of lesser 1 hole draws).

If an opponent wants to play for my stack with a 4 to 1 chance against him hitting a flush or straight draw on the turn, I am willing to oblige him at any time.

Had the turn come a Kh, Jh, or Ah, I'd be more prone to agree with you (especially Ah), but even Kh or Jh is making me WISH I had C-Bet the flop to make my turn decision on a scary card an "easy" one...

(in fact, seeing a ton of action in front of me if/when a Kh came would be ESPECIALLY sick making for me. I'd be sweating a flush AND a straight, but I would have improved to top set. that is NOT a decision I want to have to face if I can help it!)

Kh/Jh are the exact types of cards I was talking about when I mentioned "action killer"


Double Bracelet Winner
 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 09:14 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by etipac View Post
I took AA out of the equation as usually you get reraised so I made them on a pair.. Yes issue is that for a second I lost concentration and got a bit scared.. I had to shove the flop or bet in a manner that I make them feel commited. One of them would have called me ehhhh. One last thing.. how do I paste the video version like you did?

Thanks
Etienne
You do not have to SHOVE the pot on the flop in my opinion Etienne, but I do think you should bet the flop.

You gotta figure that you hold the best hand on the flop more often than not there anyway. I mean it is pretty rare that someone flops a set, right?

ANY bet you make on this flop will make it abundantly clear you are not folding. Example:

You C-Bet half pot, making it around $1.15 to go.
Even getting 1 caller will build the pot to well over $4.00.

You'd only have like $1.60 left, and you'd REALLY not want to fold at all...if you lose $1.60 more, so be it!

It is just as likely that an opponent sticking around with anything in his hand would probably have to call a river all in by you because of the size of the pot.

So you could go all in, but that might result in you folding out hands that you might beat. as long as you know that you WILL go all in though, you can feed your chips in across multiple streets if that increases the chance you'll get paid off by worse.

-JDean

P.S.

To load your hand into the re-player, click "tools" at the top of the PSO home page.
You can also navigate to detailed instructions using this link: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...r-Instructions

Of you are still having problems loading hands after trying those instructions, please feel free to pm me through PSO for help.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
Old
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Tue Jan 10, 2012, 10:04 PM
(#7)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,026
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by etipac View Post
One last thing.. how do I paste the video version like you did?
Thanks
Etienne
Etienne,

Take JDeans advice onboard. Dave has a wealth of knowledge and experience behind him.

I'm still very much at the beginners stage and I'd be the first to acknowledge that.

Click Here to get to the re-player and Click Here for some instructions on how to use it.

This hand was a very good submittal!

Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:22 AM
(#8)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hello Etipac, and welcome to the Cash Game Hand analysis forum!

In this spot, folding is not really a good idea in my opinion.

You start the hand with $3.25, and raise it up to 75c pre flop with KK (as is reasonable over a raiser and a caller in almost all cases). What that action did for you was create a beneficial Stack to Pot ratio for you to get the REST of your stack in on any flop which sees your KK as an over pair (most of 'em will).

With 2 callers, the pot has grown to $2.25, and you only have $2.75 left in your stack. Your SPR going to the flop was just over 1. Any time an SPR is below 4 to 6, you should be prepared to put the rest of your chips on any top pair/top kicker or over pair hand. Even if you are not aware of SPR considerations (I cannot know if you are from your post here), you probably can see that this is a pretty LARGE pot by the time the flop comes, and that you have a LARGE number of your chips invested already (23%).

You really should have considered c-betting after you raised here in my opinion; afterall, KK as an over pair is what you'd most expect to see on this flop right?




...if they wake up with better, so be it.

Hope it helps!

-JDean
+1 the short version.
 
Old
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:25 AM
(#9)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
Cheers guys! always very helpful.
 
Old
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 11:52 AM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi eti,

I agree with Jdean, I'm never folding this. We've created a low spr scenario with our preflop 3bet, the stack to pot ratio is under 2... I think it's virtually always a mistake to fold an over pair of K's on this low an spr, particularly with a board that isn't scary (we're only behind QT and sets, and QT is a bit less likely in a 3b pot) and with our hand strength under repped by checking the flop.

I would also c-bet the flop personally... the pot is already large relative to the remaining effective stack (low spr) and there's plenty of worse 1 pair hands and draws that can call and give us value... no need to risk a free card when we're already committed and the pot is large.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 

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