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Qq utg

Qq utg - Wed Jan 11, 2012, 08:59 AM
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717

$ 0.10 360 NL Turbo

with QQ UTG, preflop plan was to 3 bet to thin the field and get rid of low pocket and Ax, shove if 3 way pot or more to protect the pot for over card to outdraw me.

which path has more +EV my flop shove 4 way pot or should i half bet the pot and shove the turn?
Wed Jan 11, 2012, 01:25 PM
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
I would have done the same thing as you did

John JWK said "as a poker player this is all we can do" when things like this happened I just think of this then register the next game
Wed Jan 11, 2012, 03:44 PM
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
QQ preflop but way out of position. Sucks. Now I don't know the opening standard at thjs table, but I would have opened for 3x instead of 4x. Not that it makes much of a change I think. One caller, who gives the rest the proper odds to come along as well and we end up in a 5-way flop. Not what I wanna see when I'm holding a pair as vulnerable to a caller's range as QQ. At least one of these 4 callers will have an A or a K.

The flop is kind to us - all undercards, rainbow, and no obvious straight draws except maybe the A2 or A3. This means my hand is most likely good. A c-bet is in order. As far as betsizing goes, a 2k pot warrants at least a 1.5k bet to price out the straight draw, but that's going to be half my remaining stack, leaving me with just over 10BBs. I'm never gonna fold to a re-raise here, or any kind of action on the turn, so I like the shove here. Take the reshove option away from the enemy.

And we're right - we have by far the best hand. AK grossly overplays his ace-high having nothing but a backdoor draw and two overcards, and 2,3 being in the potn is questionable. Yes, he was pricved in by the two callers preflop, but to call with that bad a hand knowing we'll be first to act on every street. I would have mucked those. I also would not have called the flop-shove with a straight draw. He's getting 25 pot odds, and has in all likelihood only 7 outs (factoring in that at least one of the 5 players in the hand preflop would have an ace), giving him 30% to win the hand. the math says his call is good, but I don't like calling off my stack on a shove and a reshove with a draw.

The river is a bad card, but that's life. Theoretically, I think you should have taken it down with the shove on the flop. But at the tables, theory isn't always what ends up happening. Nothing you coulod have done here, for your hand, it pretty much plays itself. If you hadn't shoved the flop, maybe AK or 2,3 would have and you'd have called off your chips. If they hadn't, you'd have shoved the flop with probably the same result.

keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
Wed Jan 11, 2012, 04:38 PM
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
thanks pare marvin and Ov3rsight

gl n see u at the table
Thu Jan 12, 2012, 01:18 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Hello Pinoy_Hitman!

This one has been around a while, so I thought I'd chime in...

Pre flop your raise is fine. QQ is plenty strong to raise with UTG, and making it 3BB to go in not likely to stick you to the pot if an over card or 2 flops without you holding a set.

Turn: Because your open raise did not get much respect (you had 3 callers!) the pot built to a pretty low Stack-to-pot of around 1.2. Any time you are sitting on a top pair/top kicker hand, or an over pair to the board, an SPR this low is certainly reason enough to open jam, even if that means everyone folds.

First: an open jam may result in callers who might otherwise peel 1 card vs a small bet to draw at you, then fold the turn without paying you full value, pay you off 100% if they want to draw.

Second: it may look WEAKER than a half pot bet here by your stack, because it may make others think you are trying to get them to fold with an all in. This means hands like 2nd pair, who may not otherwise think they are best, could (possibly) convince themselves you are on a big ace that missed, and call.

In my opinion, the thing you really want to be careful about in making these sorts of bets is that launching such a large pot over bet (50% more than pot) quite often serves only to fold out worse hands, and cause you to lose the maximum to better hands. But since this is a turbo event, a lot of folks may be opening their call standards in order to pick up chips. So in an event like this, while a better hand is still possibly there against you when you jam, there are also a lot of WORSE hands that will likely call too.

Also, you too have a great "need" for chips in a turbo event. The large size of this pot pre flop (it will add over 50% to your stack) makes it perfectly acceptable for you to open jam your over pair to ensure that no draw gets a shot to run you down without paying max price. If all the opp's fold here, you've still added a ton of chips without the risk of someone drawing after calling a smaller bet by you.

It is my strong opinion, after seeing the hands which actually called you, that it is quite likely even if you had tried a half pot bet you'd have seen at least 1 of your opp's who called your shove instead putting all their chips in. The guy with the oesd didn't have enough chips to CALL and peel vs. a half pot bet, and if the guy with AK was quite probably calling you down on his big stack anyway (based on the fact he called your jam with just over cards). Even if they DID call a half pot bet, the "2nd bullet" you'd have had left in your gun would have laid HUGE ODDS on the turn to any caller that they are going to call anyway.

So bottom line: it seems to me the shove on the flop was the best play here for you.

After that, the fact you got called by people with outs, and they hit their outs, is moot; YOUR decision was a good one.

Hope it helps.


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Thu Jan 12, 2012 at 01:48 AM..
Thu Jan 12, 2012, 12:22 PM
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Thanks JDean for the reply.

I start to understand now and able to evaluate some situation and do some good decision and regardless what the out come. the right decision for a particular situation is more important and can really improve your confidence and your over all game.

thanks a lot guys

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