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Defending my Big Blind

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Defending my Big Blind - Wed Jan 11, 2012, 03:12 PM
(#1)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
We're at the final table of a $1.50 27man SnG, so only 5 get paid.

I'm dealt 6,7 suited in the big blind. Up until now I'd been folding most of my hands, not been getting much, and I'd been folding half-decent hands to a raise. It gets folded to the small blind who opens for about 4x.



I'm pondering folding it again, but the lure of the small suited connector is there. It's a hand with potential, especially if you flop something, and the there is the chance of then doubling up and finally having a good chipstack in this tourney. Up until now I'd been battling uphill from a 2.3 BB stack to far below average (4500). So I decide to defend my blind and make the call. It's for another 20% of my stack and I'm getting about 2 to 1 odds. The math probably says to fold it.

Flop comes a 7 and a pair of 10s. Now this is the same flop that got me in trouble earlier, when I played a suited connector and the flop came 7,T,T. I three-barreled that flop (this villain was not at that table), and lost 90% of my stack to be left with 2.3 BBs. The villain then flopped himself a set of 10s when he called my preflop raise with 8,10 off (great hand to call with, I know...)

So am I getting hit by a set of 10 again? The odds are against it, in which my pair of 7 is most likely good. He could have tried to steal with a broadway-7 hand, but what are the odds...

He bets half-pot and since I think my hand is good here, I shove. Calling isn't much of an option since that will leave me with about 8 BBs. The guy calls and flips over the AK suited. for nothing more than 2 backdoor draws and 2 overcards. So he has some chance of winning it. He's dead on the turn and I do what I hoped for: double up. In chat, the player made it quite obvious what he felt of my preflop call with a 6,7. Regardless, winning this hand boosted my chipstack, I became chip leader and never let that slip. Another tourney won.

Questions from my end:
1. Personally, I think the preflop call defending the BB with a small suited connector is good. He's never gonna have a 6 or a 7, so both are live, drawing to a straight, and a flush. Plus I still have a workable stack if I do lose. If I don't hit the flop, I'm mucking it.
2. On that flop, I consider my re-raise allin to be a profitable move. Most of the time he's not going to have a 10 or an overpair or a 7 with a better kicker.
3. I think his call with just the two overcards was grossly overplaying the AK suited. Preflop it's a strong hand, on a flopped without a pair or a draw, it's nothing but ace-high. All he beats is a bluff, and even against a bluff he could be pretty thin.

What are your opinions?

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keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 03:51 PM
(#2)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
I'd be very scared that villain had been trying to steal with 9T TT, JT, QT, KT, or AT. All sensible hands to try a steal with (depending on stacks of course)

When he bets on the flop I'd look at his c-bet stat and steal attempts. If he rarely c bets and steals a lot, I'd be worried, on the flip side, if steals are rare and c bets high then think your shove is good.

Agree that call with AK is poor.

Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Wed Jan 11, 2012 at 04:04 PM..
 
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 04:12 PM
(#3)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
The final table hadn't been playing that long (hence the still 9-handedness), so even if I had the hud going (which I hadn't), I wouldn't know a thing about his c-betting range. Like I said, I wasn't worried about a 10 at all here. Should I be?

-------------------------------------------------------
keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 04:26 PM
(#4)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
The problem is, any T has you crushed, as does any pocket pair 7 or higher. And these hands are well within the range of someone stealing from the SB. Given that you've still got a playable stack if you fold on the flop I would probably fold. As you say, calling isn't an option.

Basically when villain makes that bet you have to decide whether he has a hand or is drawing. If he has ANY hand at all (bar an underpair) he has you beat.

Just my opinion though, I think your way of playing it has validity but you risk busting out. I would wait for a better opportunity before risking my stack.
 
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Both need deeper stacks for this call to be profitable - Wed Jan 11, 2012, 04:27 PM
(#5)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
We're at the final table of a $1.50 27man SnG, so only 5 get paid.

I'm dealt 6,7 suited in the big blind. Up until now I'd been folding most of my hands, not been getting much, and I'd been folding half-decent hands to a raise. It gets folded to the small blind who opens for about 4x.

Questions from my end:
1. Personally, I think the preflop call defending the BB with a small suited connector is good. He's never gonna have a 6 or a 7, so both are live, drawing to a straight, and a flush. Plus I still have a workable stack if I do lose. If I don't hit the flop, I'm mucking it.
2. On that flop, I consider my re-raise allin to be a profitable move. Most of the time he's not going to have a 10 or an overpair or a 7 with a better kicker.
3. I think his call with just the two overcards was grossly overplaying the AK suited. Preflop it's a strong hand, on a flopped without a pair or a draw, it's nothing but ace-high. All he beats is a bluff, and even against a bluff he could be pretty thin.

What are your opinions?
[/I]
At the moment you have a 17BB stack. That size will allow you to possibly try a steal from the BTN or CO, and get away from the hand if caught. Some might shove to add fold equity to their steals. If you call this PFR and miss (which happens 2/3 of the time) you will be left with only 14BB’s, NOT a workable stack. If you hit the flop, and two over cards flop as well, what’s your plan? You may be facing a higher pocket pair, or a higher flopped pair.

Situation:
You have a good resteal stack, and you find yourself in a possible resteal spot now. It’s true that a 76s has lots of potential, but your stack size doesn’t offer you any room to maneuver. You (and the villain) need to have much deeper stacks for a justified call or resteal to work in your favor. You have no reads on this villain, and you are faced with a rather large PFR. The villain seems to not want to play the hand post-flop. By raising so much, the SB is telling you I’m calling a resteal attempt. If you call, you will most likely be facing a c-bet. Let this hand go, and wait for a better time to make use of your stack.

As the hand played out:
This is one of the best flops you could have expected to see. By all means, get it AI – nice raise! If you weren’t getting it in on this flop, then you had no business getting involved in the hand in the first place.

I still advocate folding PF.
.
 
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Wed Jan 11, 2012, 04:39 PM
(#6)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Wonder how others feel about the workable stack. Personally, at a final table, I find 14 BB a short stack, but definitely not hopeless or ready to go into panick mode. I can call-fold the flop here and be able to work my way back. It won't always happen, but I think I have the skill to do so. Of course, that idea is a bit strengthened by the comeback I'd already made this tournament, so it may be false confidence in my own abilities.

-------------------------------------------------------
keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 01:26 AM
(#7)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
imo,

fold pre his raise is indicating a strong hand not a steal

if you call a big raise and then you hit something or draw something your right you need to get it all in. I will do also. I like the jam.

don't defend your BB often because it's a leak. That's my leak also

if you want to defend your blinds it's either you reraise or fold

Last edited by marvinsytan; Thu Jan 12, 2012 at 01:28 AM..
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 03:57 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hello Ov3rsight!

I thought I would give a crack at responding to your questions with my opinions if I could...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Questions from my end:
1. Personally, I think the preflop call defending the BB with a small suited connector is good. He's never gonna have a 6 or a 7, so both are live, drawing to a straight, and a flush. Plus I still have a workable stack if I do lose. If I don't hit the flop, I'm mucking it.
20% of your stack on a call is just too much to risk to take a shot without solid info that says you can win without hitting a HUGE part of the time.

So to this question I'd respond by asking: "What do you know about your opponent's play tendencies?"

While 67s is definately a hand I'd call with in a blind on blind confrontation if I had a 35BB stack, I'm not so sure it is one I like to defend with on with a 16.5BB stack (not vs this size SB raise)... not without very specific info on my opponent at least.

(please note: I'm not considering the amount you have posted in the BB as part of your stack any more.)

I look at the possibility of flopping a straight or a flush draw with my holding only in terms of how often I can semi bluff those flops and get my opponent to fold. Afterall, my stack here cannot support a standard bet line on a drawing hand to "get there", so if I cannot see a FOLD to a shove on a semi bluff quite often, any draws I might flop are probably going to be pretty sick for me.

I am also quite reluctant to play the pairs I might make with a 67s HARD; I'd need 2 pair+ to be confident of getting called by less if I jammed, UNLESS I have specific info on my opp that says he would call on a wide variety of weak draws.

So unless I know I can leverage some type of situational equity (like the opp will check down a coordinated board to let me draw, will muck weak top pairs to jams, will lead total air balls and give up to a jam, etc), I am just not flopping enough value with 67s often enough to want to risk 3.125 BB more of my 16.5BB stack (right around 20%).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
2. On that flop, I consider my re-raise allin to be a profitable move. Most of the time he's not going to have a 10 or an overpair or a 7 with a better kicker.
Yes, it is a flop that figures to have hit you, and not hit a pre flop raiser a whole lot of the time.

But since you have so much of your stack already invested by your pre flop call, and since the villain has made a pretty normal C-Bet, you really cannot deny a correct price to an over card draw with a shove. Your hand does not really have enough "power" in it to flat his C-Bet either. You cannot FOLD to his C-Bet, because then you wasted the pre flop call money totally after hitting the hand you wanted on the board you wanted.

A total "ick" spot in my opinion.

Hence I go back to my feeling that it isn't a hand you should use to defend vs a raise this large by an SB bigger stack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
3. I think his call with just the two overcards was grossly overplaying the AK suited. Preflop it's a strong hand, on a flopped without a pair or a draw, it's nothing but ace-high. All he beats is a bluff, and even against a bluff he could be pretty thin.

What are your opinions?
Actually, he had odds to call on his overs if he felts you did not have a T or a pp KK+.

Your jam over his C-Bet laid him a price of 1801 to win 5550, or about 3.1 to 1.
He will spike one of his 6 over card outs about 25% of the time, and needs just 3 to 1 to break even.

What this means for your decision is that you GAMBLED in this spot, because your stack did not have enough in it to create a "mistake" by your opp if he held any hand that contained 2 live overs to your 7. By this I mean:

The Fundemental theorem of poker states: "any time you make an action which results in an opponent playing a hand differently than he would have played it if all cards were known, you GAIN value." conversely, any time your actions result in your opponent doing what he'd do if all cards were known, you LOSE value...

For you to have "created" a mistake by your opponent here, he must make a call with a lesser hand than yours that does NOT receive a correct price. Since even an over card call gives a +eV call to the opponent when the cards are known, that is really not a "mistake" by him...see?

So to me it all boils down to a couple of things Ov3rsight...

- the facet of hold em start hand value that is MOST important in a short stack blind defense situation is high card/pair value; 67s has a very minimal amount of that...

- suitedness and connectivity of a hand goes way DOWN in value overall when you have a short stack, simply because you do not have enough chips to follow a standard bet line to afford getting to your draw.

- My personally feeling is that a call is not usually a very good blind "defense" unless you intend to follow it up with aggression that might work to get you the result you want whether you hit or not. A lack of aggression, either pre flop or on later streets, does not constitute a blind "defense"; it is a "gee, I hope I hit, and my opponent doesn't" way to play your blind.

- a far better blind defense when you are on a short stack is an immediate shove all in over the SB raise. Of course this takes solid ranging of the opponent, and a good chance you hold a hand with at least SOME decent amount of equity if the villain calls.

Please keep in mind though, these are all just my OPINIONS; there are a lot of different thoughts about short stack play here. If you had shoved 67s here instead of called this short, with a ranging thought that says this opp might try to steal light of course, I'd like the play a lot better. If you had flatted a min raise here, even though I might not like that myself, it does have a lot more wiggle room for you in my opinion.

I can certainly see WHY you might think 67s looks like a good hand to play in this spot, and I know I've fallen into that trap of playing a "pretty hand" myself a lot too...

I just do not think that 67s was enough of a hand to call a SB raise that was this big, and a shove over a raise this big without a read that the opp will do this light a lot of the time might be too risky. At least that is my opinion...

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Thu Jan 12, 2012 at 09:28 AM..
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:24 AM
(#9)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Thanx for the input all. Plenty of food for thought.

I don't defend my blind very often, most of the time the button or SB opens the pot I'll fold unless I have something with potential. Maybe it's not the best thing, but the 6,7 only was played here because they were suited. I release a lot of suited hands, and don't get too attached because of the flush possibilities. I had a feeling he wasn't too strong though, hence the call. Most agree it shoulda been folded preflop. I'm keeping that in mind

-----------------------------------------------
keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 
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2.5BB comeback = variance - Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:38 AM
(#10)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Wonder how others feel about the workable stack. Personally, at a final table, I find 14 BB a short stack, but definitely not hopeless or ready to go into panick mode. I can call-fold the flop here and be able to work my way back. It won't always happen, but I think I have the skill to do so. Of course, that idea is a bit strengthened by the comeback I'd already made this tournament, so it may be false confidence in my own abilities.
The average stack is 4500 (22.5BB). A 14BB stack is usable (I never said hopeless), but limited. If the players to your immediate left are tight players, you have a good opportunity to min open/raise steal. As opposed to the 14BB stack, the 17BB stack offers an addition to your steal attempt, now you can add a c-bet, and fold if you get pushed off the hand. With a 17BB stack you will still have an okay shoving stack. If you lose your steal/c-bet attempt, 3BB’s makes a difference - Against some opponents, there’s a big difference between a 9BB, and a 12BB shoving stack. A 9BB stack has a wider range, and made more out of desperation (you will be looked up more often). Facing bad table dynamics, a 14BB stack is ready to use the ‘Nash Charts’ for unexploitable shoves, whereas the 17BB stack allows you another orbit to catch a better hand.

Overall, you really shouldn’t spew 3BB at this point of the tourney, on a 1/3 chance of hitting the flop. Even if you hit you could be facing a bad board. If the pot were offering you 9:1 odds, maybe you could try for a bingo (if you were closing the betting); even then I would tend to fold, rather than getting into a family pot.

As far as your abilities to come back from a 2.5BB stack, that’s all variance, not a skill. I won a tourney when down with less, but it wasn’t skill that got me back into the tourney. It was a triple up (75s in the BB – half of my money was already in the pot), followed by a double up. Without this ‘parlay’ variance, I couldn’t have gotten back on my feet. Bottom line is, you need to run good to win tourneys.
.
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:08 AM
(#11)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
The skill was not the coming back part, but the part that involved the patience. Maybe skill is the wrong word altogether
And yes, luck is the driving force to surving that first all in....
 
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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:19 AM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Thanx for the input all. Plenty of food for thought.

I don't defend my blind very often, most of the time the button or SB opens the pot I'll fold unless I have something with potential. Maybe it's not the best thing, but the 6,7 only was played here because they were suited. I release a lot of suited hands, and don't get too attached because of the flush possibilities. I had a feeling he wasn't too strong though, hence the call. Most agree it shoulda been folded preflop. I'm keeping that in mind

-----------------------------------------------
keeping up with my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
Hi again Ov3rsight!

If you have a feeling that he isn't too strong here, then I'm all for a jam over his raise with 67s.

1) If he is light he is risking almost half his stack to "sheriff" a shove that really seems like you need not make it yet (as opposed to a pretty hopeless FE shove off a 5BB stack). Obviously if he folds you have zero worries, and make a nice little chip up.

2) If he calls with something like a rag A (A5 and under), you will have pretty decent equity given the size of the pot (about 46.7%).

3) If he calls with 2 major over cards (like the actual hand he held), you will still have somewhere around 40% or 41% equity because of your suited value and connectedness.

BTW...this is actually a weird case where the opp would be better off with QJo if you jam and he calls, than AKo (you have only 38.75% vs QJo).

So the only real "fears" you have are pp 66+, and "big" dominating 6's or 7's (like A7/K7/Q7/J7, weaker 6's - 7's have a pretty decent chance to at least chop for you).

It is a call to peel you really cannot afford in my opinion, but there can be reason seen in jamming instead.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 

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