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Vary the raise size or always bet the same.

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Vary the raise size or always bet the same. - Thu Jan 12, 2012, 12:14 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi all,

Currently reading Harrinton on hold 'em, and have a few questions

He recommends Raising more with QQ than KK in early position to chase away draws? I usally would bet the same 3x early on and 2.45x later on with any raising hand.

Q. which method do you use and why?

Also in the book he talks about calling 20% raise 80% with some hands (% vary depending on hand strenth and position and oppenents)

Does anyone do this? if so how do you decide your % I was giving consderation to having a 10 sided dice on my desk?

Thanks in advance

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 04:09 PM
(#2)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
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It may be poker views have changed a bit over the years of course, HoH is a few years old already. Remember it was written before the poker boom, and the current generation of young internet players play an aggressive style very different from when Dan wrote this. Or so I heard.

I can understand his reasoning - QQ is a lot more vulnerable to being outflopped than KK, so you would basically wanna raise preflop to that any Kx that's not KK or AK mucks it so you just have the aces to worry about. With KK, you already have only the aces to worry about.

For me, I generally start with a 3x open raise in early stages, in middle stages play 2.5x, and in late stages play , although I have been experimenting with 3x in late stages too, especially when I'm short. Not enough info yet to see how that works out for me.

Calling 20% and raise 80% with some hands is a bit vague for me, can't do much with that.

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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:58 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
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HoH is 2004 has the poker world changed that much?


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:06 PM
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I believe if you are going to vary your raise amounts, it should be predicated on table position, and opponet, not your cards. Any shrewd player will pick up on how much you are raising with one holding as opposed to another. Giving away too much info. As blinds get larger of course the customary raise is usually 2 1/ BB and then a min. raise deep in tourney.
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi all,

Currently reading Harrinton on hold 'em, and have a few questions

He recommends Raising more with QQ than KK in early position to chase away draws? I usally would bet the same 3x early on and 2.45x later on with any raising hand.

Q. which method do you use and why?

Also in the book he talks about calling 20% raise 80% with some hands (% vary depending on hand strenth and position and oppenents)

Does anyone do this? if so how do you decide your % I was giving consderation to having a 10 sided dice on my desk?

Thanks in advance

Grade b
Played a corral game with u once. Do u remember when u picked up on my 4xbets with AA KK QQ and 3xbet everything else? Since then i have stuck to the same 3xbet as people will not know what i am holding.

Last edited by m.bisland; Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 03:36 PM..
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:31 PM
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Not sure if you were referring to me bis, I assume so by your comment. Thats a solid adjustment IMO, nice going
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:38 PM
(#7)
m.bisland's Avatar
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ty but i was on about gradeb
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 04:10 PM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
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Now you say it i do remember.....can you do the same next time i'm on your table


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 04:47 PM
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m.bisland's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Now you say it i do remember.....can you do the same next time i'm on your table


Grade b
No i wont but i will know when your not holding a monster.
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
No i wont but i will know when your not holding a monster.
+1 bet size changes is one of the tells that a number of players look for. I used to do it... not anymore.

John (JWK24)


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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 05:19 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caia View Post
I believe if you are going to vary your raise amounts, it should be predicated on table position, and opponet, not your cards. Any shrewd player will pick up on how much you are raising with one holding as opposed to another. Giving away too much info. As blinds get larger of course the customary raise is usually 2 1/ BB and then a min. raise deep in tourney.

+1

Changing bet sizing in relation to position is a good way to go IMO. By holdings is terrible and a sure as Hell leak. Changing up to be opponent specific,with good,solid reads on a particular opponent,or opponents,can be a lethal tool if properly utilized.

Just be sure to watch out for opponents if they begin to adjust to what you're trying to do to them.
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:25 PM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Thanks guys that's great. It is what i do i tend to raise 4X earlirer in structure in Ep 3 in and 2.5 x in late.

I still use the raise if first in but noticed in space gravys vids he adviced some limps (sett mining on the cheap mostly)

What does every one recommend?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:36 PM
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Hey grade b!

setmining for me is somewhat determined by the table I'm at and the style everyone is playing. The more maniacs that there are at the table, the less I'll open-limp to try to do it.

John (JWK24)


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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:28 PM
(#14)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
I`m a big fan of a standard raise, but I do vary size by position. I tend to raise more UTG simply because I play stronger hands in this position (although this is opp specific too).

The never-ending answer is it depends, table dynamics play a large part in all these decisions. Great discussion!!

 
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Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:15 PM
(#15)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi Joy,

that does make sence, could you give an example how the dynamic at a table would cause you to cahange bet size?

Thanks in anticipation

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:36 PM
(#16)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
I'm a proponent of something I learned from Ferguson.
I raise less in EP and more in LP if I'm going to vary the opening raise.
If I'm in EP and decide to enter a pot, then I've got a monster and I don't need to raise more. Usually a 2.5 in EP, 3 in MP, and 3.5 in LP early in a tourney or in a cash game. As the tourney progresses, then more of the MP and LP raises will fall to about 2.5 to 2.7 and in LP as low as 2.2.
Generally, we play more hands in later positions, so I'll raise those a little more to make the blinds' decisions a little tougher.
Table dynamics can alter this method. If there are loose players to my left, then I may reduce the opening raises and rely on post-flop play, thus avoiding too much risk, and, to entice them to play their sub-standard hands.
Good thread.
 
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Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:31 PM
(#17)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Humm well, that makes good sense, to reverse my "current" thinking and raise less from early. of course it means I'll have to actually play good hands but i can see the reasoning.

so thoughts people less early and more late or more late and less early...what do we think. i'll have to try this out in the tank games.

Grade b.


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 01:21 AM
(#18)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi Joy,

that does make sence, could you give an example how the dynamic at a table would cause you to cahange bet size?

Thanks in anticipation

Grade b
The most common one that comes to mind is a table where almost everyone will call my standard 2.5-3X raise with ATC, this happens often in rebuys, as well as games with a lot of bad players. I don't want to be playing my AA KK QQ hands against 4-5 players, since it makes my odds of winning drop. I do this most often early in a tourney.

Later on, when the caliber of players is better, I'll just make a standard raise from early position. In most cases I'll only get one or two callers, since the ATC crowd is mostly gone in later stages. I also lower my bet sizing, when blinds are very large I sometimes raise only 2X, especially if my chip stack is not great.

I'll sometimes even limp in late position to disguise hand strength, or just call a raiser. I've been experimenting with this a bit this month, so I'm not 100% sure how effective it really is. It also depends on my opponent, if I think they will Cbet on missed flops a lot I might let them take the lead and hang themselves. You do need a very strong hand to do this, as you might end up trapping yourself.

I've been trying to improve my hand reading skills this month, with some mixed results. But practice makes perfect, so I'll keep at it. I really like the discussion on this topic, very informative.

 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:43 AM
(#19)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty Joy,

Yes that makes sense so would you shove if a rebuy with the ATC bragade around or make it 6x?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:58 PM
(#20)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Hi everyone,

Poker is all about situations. That includes position, reads, prior actions in the hand and sometimes even the cards. These situations can be classified into groups (such as very strong hand UTG, blind v blind with LAG SB, etc). In similar situations you should be making identical moves + a "randomization factor". For "Strong hand early pre-flop" my randomization may be to play a cheese hand, say 72s, the same as AA. Another randomization factors can be raise ~90% call ~10%.

The purpose of this is to sow seeds of doubt into your opponents. Playing identical in similar situations is suicide against aware opponents. Some type of randomization is necessary.

Good decisions everyone!


Joe
 

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