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Should I have folded here?

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Should I have folded here? - Sat Jan 14, 2012, 12:08 AM
(#1)
DasherF78's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 75
Hi Guys,

I'm wondering if I should have folded here? The all in looked strong. Is this weak to fold this? I had commited about a third of my stack. I decided I still had a few chips to play with and I'd take my stand later.

Thanks

 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 12:26 AM
(#2)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
No, you did not just fold there

I'm sorry to say that

personally

Pre - you should raise more with 2 limpers the raise should be 2.5 plus 2 = 4.5BB which is 900 just to make your hand looks stronger and better fold equity to your 2 opp's big stack.

flop - super wet FD SD OESD and maybe FDOESD

opp#1 limp only meaning he wanted to see the flop for a cheap price therefore doesn't have a strong hand then called your raise and have a big stack, he can do it with big drawing hands yes he might hit it but still you are ahead at this point folding the best hand is not good.

**this is my leak also sometimes I tend to fold AK Pre but when the Teachers and other members are telling me not to fold AK i change my mindset, now im willing to bust out with AK Pre, much more with TPTK on a wet board
 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 12:38 AM
(#3)
DasherF78's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 75
marvinsytan, ha ha no need to apoligise

I make this mistake quite a bit, not wanting to call all ins. I'm much looser pushing all in, I went out eventually with A8s UTG, go figure
 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 12:42 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, raise bigger preflop to make it easier to get all-in postflop if you make a pair, but don't fold the flop. There are a lot of weaker pairs, weaker pairs + draws, and naked draws that could do this on top of flopped straights, two pairs, and sets, which are all more rare than the first three hand categories.
 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 01:28 AM
(#5)
DasherF78's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 75
Thanks Panicky

I think if I'd started with < 15BB I'd have committed easily with this hand. Starting with 20+ BB, my bet sizing pre-flop was small to avoid being commited with AK if I missed the flop. I think after the flop bet I should have commited to the hand. Perhaps a check on the flop might have changed the scenario?

At what stack size should we be prepared to commit to calling an all in with 1 pair? or would this be player specific? this opponent was quite passive, playing 30/0, this is one reason I thought the all in looked strong.
 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 01:41 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
That's a tad too complex a question to answer with one post, but two of PSO's training videos come to mind. TheLangolier's videos on commitment decisions and SPR would for sure help you in this area if you haven't seen them already.

Oftentimes, poker is just about making your life easier however you can. In spots like this, I sometimes just throw the 'raise 3x +1x per limper' rule out the door and just jam preflop, and I'll actually do it on 100bb if I think the table has fish on it. Yes, you're making a stupid big raise, but guess what? I get called by KTs and A9o often enough to make it one of my more profitable plays. If you're having difficulty thinking of a +EV play, try thinking outside the box.
 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 02:48 AM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,837
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Dasher!

Tough, tough spot.

Preflop, I would have raised more. My std for lower blinds is 3BB+1BB for each limper, but about this level, I lower it to 2.5BB+1BB for each limper, so I'd have raised to 900.
If I raised more preflop, then for a c-bet with hitting TPTK, I would shove the flop. I'd be committed to the pot, so would want to be the first to shove, rather than having to call a shove.

The way the hand played out, the starting stack for the hand is 4365. 500 goes in preflop, then 1k is bet on the flop as a c-bet. This bet would put me over 1/3 invested into the pot, so I would be committed to calling the opp's shove.

There are a number of draws that the opp could have and could even hand a made straight or 2 pair already, which makes this an even trickier situation.

Unless this is the bubble and I had enough chips to get ITM within an orbit, I don't want to fold here. A std preflop raise and c-bet with TPTK will put more than 1/3 of my chips into the pot, so I would shove first on the flop here and put the pressure on my opponent. If the opp has a better hand, then I'll just start another tourney.

I wouldn't shove here pre, as I tend to start looking for a place to shove when I get to around 15BB, not over 20BB, as is the case here. With 20+BB, I try to outplay an opp after the flop. Others will start to shove pre earlier, and the point when a player will, is personal preference.

I agree with Panicky that Dave's videos on SPR and committment decisions might help. The are sessions 2, 20 and 21 in the video section.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jan 14, 2012, 07:42 PM
(#8)
DasherF78's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 75
Thanks JWK.

Does this ever change based on the opponent or does the hand play itself based on commitment descisions?

Say, this was not micros and the opp was a good player:
1. I raise preflop after playing very tight, against two bigger stacks. Opp would have to assume I have a PP or two high cards.
2. The flop is bang in my range and I lead out with 25%+ of my stack, so I'm more or less commited.
3. From the Opp's point of view at worst I've probably hit middle pair with a draw and likely stronger.
4. Opp still decides eventhough I'm commited he's strong enough to raise all in.

In this situation, I'm not feeling that good about TPTK.
 
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Sun Jan 15, 2012, 04:17 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,837
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Dasher!

Even in the daily casino live tourneys that I've played in ($35-80 buy-in), most players aren't thinking about committment decisions. All they'll look at is that you made a very small bet and consider it weak and then shove into it, thinking that the AK was a small pocket pair, when they had a draw or draw with a pair (KQ, QJ, etc).
TPTK may or may not be good and still would leave a very tricky decision.

Better players will be shoving against the small bet frequently, and I'd want to find a way to get my chips in first and put the pressure on them, instead of having to call a shove.
It's much easier to shove with TPTK on a board like this, than it is to call a shove with it, as there are so many combos that the opp could draw out and win on, or already be ahead.

Calling the all-in from the opp here is definitely a tough decision and that decision if I'm not pot committed would have to be based on my read on the opp, but, I'd want to find a way to not have to make that decision, so I'd want to shove first.
Actually, the only spot where I might fold TPTK and not shove first is in a league game, and if I was even thinking of folding, I wouldn't bet the flop and hope to see the turn for free (or make a very small blocking bet).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jan 16, 2012, 07:16 AM
(#10)
akisno's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 41
Quote:

Say, this was not micros and the opp was a good player:
1. I raise preflop after playing very tight, against two bigger stacks. Opp would have to assume I have a PP or two high cards.
Your raise is weak like a pair of 2s, even AA can't be played prof against 3 opp with such small raise.
Quote:
In this situation, I'm not feeling that good about TPTK.
AKo outop if you can't play postflop push preflop with 21bbs and take the dead money.
Gl
 

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