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Set on drawy board

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Set on drawy board - Mon Jan 16, 2012, 09:57 PM
(#1)
Keldraco's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
.25c 45 man
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

No read on BB before this hand. (21)38/5 at the end of tournament. Note: chase any draw and shove when hit x2.

Pre-flop: standard raise.

Flop: Many draw to flush and straight. I decide to bet almost pot size to protect my hand and get value from a pair of Q or maybe 9. He could be slow playing KT or T8 or Q9 (i find it very hard to range loose player).

Turn: Flush hit but straight draw still miss. I'm still winning any pair, 2 pairs or some kind of combo hand so i bet out. After BB check raise all-in i realize the odd was pretty close to call. Pot odd 3.34:1, I am 4:1 to win if he had me beat.

1) Any problem with my bet sizing on the flop and turn?
2) Is it better to check back the turn?
3) If i check the turn and he go all-in on the river, what to do?
4) Can i call his check raise shove?
5) With BB SPR on the turn, are we suppose to just play for stack or we can still fold?

Last edited by Keldraco; Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:09 PM..
 
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Mon Jan 16, 2012, 10:34 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
QUOTE=Keldraco

1) Any problem with my bet sizing on the flop and turn?

I like it. It's nicely sized to get all-in by the river, so if he calls down with worse, you won't miss value.

2) Is it better to check back the turn?

No. You're missing value from worse hands (TPTK, lower sets, etc.) and you're allowing turned flush draws to see a free river.

3) If i check the turn and he go all-in on the river, what to do?

I'd be inclined to call because you've underrepresented your hand by checking the turn, so worse hands than yours will shove for value. The villain will also have bluffs, because they'll potentially see weakness in the turn check. Betting the turn relieves you of this problem, though.

4) Can i call his check raise shove?

If he ever bluffs here or checkraises worse, then you're fine. I think you're almost definitely fine.

5) With BB SPR on the turn, are we suppose to just play for stack or we can still fold?

I think it's really hard to fold a set in a pot this big. With a flopped set, you're supposed to play for stacks almost always. Even on a board with three to a flush, you're HU; a made flush will be quite rare here.

/QUOTE

There's my input.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 12:20 AM
(#3)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Panicky your good at this

Keldraco, Panicky had the perfect answers to all your questions

You played this hand correctly. Bet all the way is the right thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
QUOTE=Keldraco

1) Any problem with my bet sizing on the flop and turn?

I like it. It's nicely sized to get all-in by the river, so if he calls down with worse, you won't miss value.

2) Is it better to check back the turn?

No. You're missing value from worse hands (TPTK, lower sets, etc.) and you're allowing turned flush draws to see a free river.

3) If i check the turn and he go all-in on the river, what to do?

I'd be inclined to call because you've underrepresented your hand by checking the turn, so worse hands than yours will shove for value. The villain will also have bluffs, because they'll potentially see weakness in the turn check. Betting the turn relieves you of this problem, though.

4) Can i call his check raise shove?

If he ever bluffs here or checkraises worse, then you're fine. I think you're almost definitely fine.

5) With BB SPR on the turn, are we suppose to just play for stack or we can still fold?

I think it's really hard to fold a set in a pot this big. With a flopped set, you're supposed to play for stacks almost always. Even on a board with three to a flush, you're HU; a made flush will be quite rare here.

/QUOTE

There's my input.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 12:57 AM
(#4)
Keldraco's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Thanks Panicky and marvin.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 02:05 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Keldraco!

JJ, one of the hands that can always get into a tough spot.

Preflop, the std raise is exactly what I'd do here.

Tough flop. A set of J's on a board with a flush draw, straight draw or possibly a made straight. I like your flop bet and also like the size of it. I normally bet between 2/3's and 3/4's pot in this situation and you are right in the middle of them. The bet makes it a -EV play for the opp to draw.

On the turn, the flush draw hits and the opp checks. Once again, I like the value bet here and like the size of it (between 1/2 and 2/3's pot, which once again makes a draw -EV). The bet here is a real good idea, becuase with 3 spades on the board and without one of the J's being a spade, I would not want someone with a lone spade drawing for free.

To call the opps shove it's 460 into a pot that will be 1995 (23%). Even if the opp has a made flush or straight, it's only a small -EV call into a large pot, as there are 10 outs to improve on the river. I'm making the call here everytime. If the opp would shove anything else other than a made flush or straight or AA, then it won't even be a -3%EV play, it could easily be a +EV play.

If I checked the turn and the opp shoved the river, if it's a spade that made a full house, then I'd have a big problem and have to fold to it or make a crying call knowing I was probably beat... and I really don't want to have to make that decision.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Commitment Threshold - Tue Jan 17, 2012, 05:38 AM
(#6)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldraco View Post
No read on BB before this hand.
It’s a micro-stake 45 man MTT, and it’s far from over. Seems like it’s between the second or third orbit of the tourney. You have no reads yet.

Pre-Flop:
Standard size PFR, called by an unknown villain in the BB. The SPR is 7, which is an awkward size to commit top pair hands. Even without reads you should be ‘ranging’ the villain, by eliminating QQ+, and AK.

Flop:
You hit the flop hard, but it is very draw heavy. The villain checks to you. You’re about to invest 10% of your stack, which is the ‘commitment threshold’. From this point on, you should have a plan!

As played, you are hoping to take the pot down now. You make a c-bet, and the villain just calls. You should limit the villains ‘range’ to a more descript holding. Even not knowing the villains style, you have to think he has hit this flop. He might have a straight; two pair; draws; pair with a draw; possibe set of 9’s (but I think he would check/raise them, as well as many very strong pair/draw hands), but perhaps he’s ‘passive’.

Turn:
Not a very friendly card. The villain checks to you. This is a tricky spot, any bet here gets you pot committed. Plus the fact, that you don’t know what type of villain you’re up against.

As played, you made a ‘committing’ turn c-bet. When the villain shoves, he could have anything from a draw to a flush. You just invested 38% of your stack, hard to turn tail and run now. Even if he’s ahead of you, you have about a 3.5:1 shot of catching a boat (or quads). The pot is offering you the right odds, plus you may be ahead of him.

When you get involved in a hand, you should use REM to help guide you through your bets, on each street. ‘Range’ your opponent; evaluate your ‘Equity’ in the hand; and ‘Maximize’ your value. Basically, you failed to recognize your 'equity' in the hand, compared to his 'range'. If you did, you would have taken a pot control line, to get your hand to showdown.
[/B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldraco View Post
1) Any problem with my bet sizing on the flop and turn?
2) Is it better to check back the turn?
3) If i check the turn and he go all-in on the river, what to do?
4) Can i call his check raise shove?
5) With BB SPR on the turn, are we suppose to just play for stack or we can still fold?
Answers:
1)Pre-flop and flop bets were fine. I feel that you should have used a pot control line for the turn, when a very connected card hit the board.
2)Yes – check back the turn.
3)If you don’t boat up on the river, laydown the hand to a shove (which I don’t think he’s making). More likely he’s betting at most 2/3 pot, which I would call, unless the river card is coordinated with the board. By not betting on the turn, you can now make this call (even if it involves a total of 38% investment this hand), because you still have equity compared to his range, and it's ending the betting.
4)I think you have to call his turn shove after you made a committing bet (38% of your stack). Plus, you’re getting good odds to outdraw the villain, if he’s beating you (he may be on a draw or have a worse hand, as well).
5)SPR is not considered after it is set at the end of the pre-flop action. It’s a guide to help you decide which hands to play, and how aggressive you should play them. For example: Suited connectors and pairs play much better when the players involved have deeper stacks. Toward the late middle and end of many tourneys (when blinds are high compared to stacks), you shouldn’t play most suited connectors and pairs (lower SPR’s), the risk/reward isn’t viable.
.

Last edited by king_spadez1; Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 05:59 AM.. Reason: correcting odds for improving JJ from 3:1 to 3.5:1
 

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