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bad beat against terrible players, I need some pointers

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bad beat against terrible players, I need some pointers - Mon Jan 16, 2012, 10:55 PM
(#1)
cletero's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Hi, I have fallen into a bad beat last 3 days and there is something I need to learn, since in 3 days I lost what I had won in 3 weeks ($10 in 1/2 cent tables, so no big deal). My problem arrises when I face guys who will call-call-call chasing a flush and hit their miracle card on the river (I'm drowning too often in it), no matter how much I raise, they will keep calling, so my top pair or trips become useless and I can't help loosing a bunch of money. Then, when I do hit something and there are no flush possibilities on the flop, they fold of course, so I win too little money and never recover what I lost in the first place. How do I make them stop calling??? It doesn't seem to balance into the pot odds of getting a flush. I mean, I should be winning 4 out of 5, but I'm more like 2 out of 4 and the 3 I win I don't get that much money back.
Second question, how do I determine their hand if they are calling (even 3BB raises) with just about anything? So if I have AKo or AKs, flop comes 8h 9d Qs and they raise half or 2/3 the pot, how do I know if they are bluffing or hit a pair or even trips?? Should I call it??
If it's so hard knowing what they have, should I just play more tables (currently playing 6) and concentrate on my hand instead of trying to figure out there's??
 
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Mon Jan 16, 2012, 11:54 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi Cletero!

You can't make them stop calling and honestly, if your bets make them calling -EV, you want them to call. I've gone thru streaks like this that have lasted weeks or months.

To deal with a calling station, I want to value bet them to death when I have a made hand. Don't ever try to bluff one of them... it won't work. If you're value betting your made hands, in the long run, it will be +$$ for you, as you'll get more whenever you have a made hand and they don't hit.

Here's a video from Dave that deals with the different types of opponents and how to attack them. This should help to learn how to deal with a calling station.

On the 89Q and you have AK, you should be folding that to any bet on the flop, as you don't have a made hand. At the 2NL tables, bluffing will only get a player into trouble, as there are too many maniacs and calling stations, so they won't work. Bluffing at these tables is a large -EV play. It's best to play A-B-C poker at them.

You always want to be ranging the opponent, so I wouldn't be opening more tables, I'd maybe close one or 2 and concentrate more on the opps and their play types. This will help to range their hands better.

These types of streaks will happen and a player just needs to be sure that they are playing solid poker and grind their way thru them.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 04:57 AM
(#3)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Hi cletero,

Don't let it get to you dude. T2 off suit busted my AA last night, just laugh it off, and in the long run lets see who wins more him playing T2 or me playing good starting hands
You really do want them kind of players who chase hands, this is where alot of profit can be made.
I see players chasing flushes all the time, whilst i do not know why there are so many players that will play any 2 suited cards this also works to your advantage when it comes to reads on a player and you can bet bigger and really make them pay for it

If you are not using it already you should download this software it's free http://www.pokerstove.com/ this will help you to check how much of a favourite you were in the hand and give you piece of mind in future desicions.

Tutorial can be found here http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...-to-PokerStove


GL in the future.

(Paul)

Last edited by PokerPest72; Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 05:07 AM.. Reason: more info.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 05:45 AM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Cletero!

You can't make them stop calling and honestly, if your bets make them calling -EV, you want them to call. I've gone thru streaks like this that have lasted weeks or months.

To deal with a calling station, I want to value bet them to death when I have a made hand. Don't ever try to bluff one of them... it won't work. If you're value betting your made hands, in the long run, it will be +$$ for you, as you'll get more whenever you have a made hand and they don't hit.

Here's a video from Dave that deals with the different types of opponents and how to attack them. This should help to learn how to deal with a calling station.

On the 89Q and you have AK, you should be folding that to any bet on the flop, as you don't have a made hand. At the 2NL tables, bluffing will only get a player into trouble, as there are too many maniacs and calling stations, so they won't work. Bluffing at these tables is a large -EV play. It's best to play A-B-C poker at them.

You always want to be ranging the opponent, so I wouldn't be opening more tables, I'd maybe close one or 2 and concentrate more on the opps and their play types. This will help to range their hands better.

These types of streaks will happen and a player just needs to be sure that they are playing solid poker and grind their way thru them.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
Don't ever try to bluff one of them...
quality advice ++++++++++
personally i dont try to play good hands,premium hands against these type players,i try out donk the donk as such,where as tag players i give respect and hoping they are good enought to fold hope this helps...
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 10:33 PM
(#5)
cletero's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Hi to you all. I don't actually let this bad beats get to me anymore, thanks to JWK24s' advice in other thread I posted. But I do need to get some help on avoiding loosing the amounts of money I'm loosing and how to play while it lasts. I can now recognize when I'm in a bad beat simply by the amount of good starting hands I get (not too often right now), so I need to inmediately change gears to get the best of it and not the worst. So:
1) No bluffing
2) Value bet made hands - is second top pair a made hand?
3) no cbets

I actually played like this today and only lost $1 instead of 3-4 which I lost previous days.

Anything alse? How about bet sizing? I have been going for 75 - 90% of the pot to try to scare them, since that doesn't work, maybe I should bet less? How much?
And preflop raises, should I keep up the same or just call and see if I make a hand? They will call 3BB raises anyways.

Thanks for all the advice
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 10:54 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Cletero!

2nd pair is a marginal made hand. I'd only value bet it against the loosest opps at this level.
c-bets are good IF you hit the flop, otherwise, don't.

Bet sizing depends on the hand that a player has, the texture of the board and the number of opps in the hand, also, whether it's preflop, flop, turn or river...... it depends. Flop or after, could be 1/3 pot, 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 3/4 pot or pot.... it depends on the exact situation. BUT, flop or after, don't bet if you're not ahead in the hand (or a statistical favorite to win the hand).

Preflop, std raises. If a player changes them, it can easily be a tell that the opps can pick up on.

If a player just calls and calls, then their play can be very exploitable by the opponents.

I would watch these videos from Dave as a reference for some of these situations. 3,4,5,22,23,25,36,39,40.

Hope this helps,

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:40 PM
(#7)
cletero's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Not sure if I'm out of it already, but did pretty well today, +$2. In one table I'm fresh in, guy raises early position, I'm still nervous but get QQ and decide to reraise, BB calls, first guy reraises, here we are at about 44c, more nervous, but decide to play it so I go all in, both guys call. Board something like 8s 7d 3h 10s Ah, the A makes me nervous but guys muck, I check the replay: 1st guy had J10s, second had k10o. I make +$2. Nice. I will certainly see the videos.
Thanks, see you at the tables.
 
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Mon Feb 06, 2012, 02:06 AM
(#8)
AC1D1K's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 2
BronzeStar
Thank you for your insight!
 
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Mon Feb 06, 2012, 02:44 PM
(#9)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Had another one of those days too, it happens:
* KK vs QQ 3x and I lost all 3 to a flopped Q
* big preflop bet with TT8, flop is 3,T,Q rainbow, I make a big bet, he calls, check check on turn, and he shoves on the river, I call and he shows 7,9 suited for runner-runner flush
* shove allin with a flopped nut flush, get called by a flopped set of 5, runner runner 9 for a full house

Nothing you can do but shake it off and hope the donkeys will not be so lucky tomorrow

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keeping track of my poiker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
 

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