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Question for Hand Analysers

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Question for Hand Analysers - Tue Jan 17, 2012, 05:43 PM
(#1)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,508
Question for the Hand Analysers.

Player 1..........John..........$2,000 in chips.......Dealt Js 10s
Player 2..........Paul..........$1,300 in chips........Dealt Qc Qd
Player 3..........George......$8,210 in chips........Dealt Ac Kc
Player 4..........Ringo.........$10,000 in chips......Dealt Ah Ad

Blinds 100/200 ante 20...John SB , Paul BB , Ringo UTG , George UTG + 2

Ringo....Call (Slow Playing Aces)
George..Call (Also Thinks he is slow playing )
John......Call (Seeing the flop for half a bet)
Paul.......All in (Knows Ringo is a tight player and could easily have a good hand so wants to isolate him, as he thinks QQ should be in front, or at worst is a race )

Ringo Calls as does George both believing that their hands are good enough to play for such a smallish portion of their stacks.
John, who is a bit on the loose side, decides to go All in as he now has less than ten big blinds and he likes suited connectors anyway.

Flop is As Ks Qs

Ringo Checks with the intention of raising any bet from George. George also checks as he doesn't want to spew chips as there is a Flush possibility and a Broadway, both beating his hand.

Turn is Kd

Ringo again checks hoping that George had a King and will bet so that he can check/raise.
George, thinking that his Kings over Aces full house is the best hand, judging by the previous betting, goes All in, and Ringo Snap calls with his Aces full of Kings

River is Qh

The Question is.......This is a Bounty Tournament so who gets who's Bounties ?

This is not an actual tournament hand history, any resemblance to any persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

Dependant on the answers I receive, there will be a subsequent question.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 05:55 PM
(#2)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
I think that John gets Paul's and Ringo gets George's.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 06:20 PM
(#3)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
as john only has enough behind to stack paul, he gets pauls bounty +a 7,300 chip pot (main pot) 2k+2k=2k+1.3k
ringo gets george's bounty and rakes a 12,420 (side pot) 6210X2= 8210-2000 ea. that went to john
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 06:44 PM
(#4)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
And as a side note if the stack sizes are the same but cards are dealt as follows:

John
Paul
George
Ringo

Board

And all players are all in pre then John and Paul are eliminated and George and Ringo split the pot. The bounties will go to Ringo since he had the biggest stack at the start of the hand (at least that is how it works in my local casino).

Last edited by Swaxwell; Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 06:48 PM..
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 06:58 PM
(#5)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
And now by a serendipitous convergence of accident and logic I now know that if you put a colon before As, it will turn into , Happy days!
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:05 PM
(#6)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,508
OK just two takers here and a PM from JWK ALL saying basically the same.

John gets Paul's Bounty and Ringo gets George's Bounty.

I was hoping that JDean and TheLangolier would have put in their twopennyworth, So, Here is the follow up question.

Question #2

From question #1, John and Paul are both All in giving the main pot $5,200 in chips and side pot #1 $2,100.
When George goes All in this makes a further side pot #2 of $12,420 because Ringo called.

Ringo wins side pot #2 as his Full House of Aces over Kings beats George's Full House of Kings over Aces.

John wins side pot #1 as his Royal Flush beats both the Full Houses, and the main pot because his Royal Flush also beats Paul's Quad Queens.

Now the supplementary question is this....If the #2 side pot is decided first and then the #1 side pot and finally the Main pot, why does John not get BOTH Bounties ?

Side pot #2 has been arbitrated with Ringo the winner, Side pot #1 has been arbitrated with John as the winner. But the cunnundrum lies herein....All FOUR Players have still got money invested in the Main Pot, side pots #2 and #1 are over, So therefore the Main pot is a different bet entirely and as all four players are still invested in this, then surely the winner of this pot is the one that eliminates the players ?

 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:16 PM
(#7)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
Now the supplementary question is this....If the #2 side pot is decided first and then the #1 side pot and finally the Main pot, why does John not get BOTH Bounties ?
Surely the main pot is decided first, and then the side pots. This way there is no problem.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:20 PM
(#8)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,508
No last pot in, is always decided first, then pots backward ending with Main pot.
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:29 PM
(#9)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
This does not make sense. I can't see any reason why the main pot should be decided last. And if Chewbacca lives on Endor then you must acquit!

(If anyone can tell me what TV show I'm referencing here then I will buy you a pint!)
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:39 PM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Southpark


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 07:57 PM
(#11)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Wow that was quick. I thought that reference might be quite obscure. I owe you a pint!
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 08:33 PM
(#12)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
he gets 1 bounty because he starts the hand with only enough chips to stack 1 player (paul)
simple as that
 
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Tue Jan 17, 2012, 09:44 PM
(#13)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Hi Bill,
The 1st problem I have with your question is you didn't state what actions Ringo and George took after John's all-in pre-flop.

I loaded you scenario into a template and into the re-player.
I feel that there are 3 pots here with this hand:
1) Paul's all-in of 1300 with 4 callers = 5200
2) John's all-in of 700 more with 3 callers = 2100
and 3) George's all-in of 6210 he has left called by Ringo = 12420
and a total pot of 19720

John has royal flush
Paul has 4 of a kind
Ringo has full house A's over K's
George has full house K's over A's

John's royal flush trumps the other hands giving him the two pots he was in of 5200 and 2100 eliminating Paul therefore getting his bounty.
Ringo's A's over K's beats George's K's over A's giving him the last pot of 12420 and George's bounty.





Last edited by joker41673; Thu Jan 19, 2012 at 07:14 AM.. Reason: obviously I'm not an analyzer and so my opinion was never asked for nor appreciated will take care to remember this nexttime
 
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Wed Jan 18, 2012, 03:45 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
It is my understanding that in bounty tournies, you must KNOCK OUT an opponent to win their bounty.

This means in a situation where there is a main pot, and side pots, anyone all in in the main pot would be a bounty for the winner of the main pot; any one all in in a give side pot would be a bounty for the winner of that side pot.

When John moves in for his remaining 1800 in chips (over Paul's all in of 1100 over his BB), do Ringo and George both flat?
The fact both these palyers can still act seem to indicate they can, but you do not sy so explicitly.
Whether they flat, or move in themselves (either one) really does not effect things a whole lot if the 2nd shortest stack is all in by the end of the hand anyway, so I will assume George and Ringo flat John's all in...

This means going to the flop, we have a main pot of 1300 (Paul's total stack) + 1300 (from John's chips) + 1300 (Ringo) + 1300 (George) = 5200.
Only Paul is all in here, so the winner of the main pot gets Paul's bounty.
(Note: I am assuming Paul's total start stack is 1300, before antes or blinds. Tracking antes and blinds are un-necessary, as Paul's total stack including any blinds and antes he posted, is all in the pot; anyone calling that has added that total amount, so blinds and antes become moot.)

John has a Royal at show down, so he wins the main pot, and takes down Paul's bounty.

When John moves in pre flop over Paul's all in, he creates another side pot, between John, Ringo, and George.
When John makes his royal, he also wins this side pot, but since neither Ringo nor George were all in, no bounties are won.

Later in the hand, when moves all in for his remaining chips, and Ringo calls, that creates another side pot. Ringo receives back all his chips in excess of George's stack, and is not all in, so only George is all in. When Ringo makes As full of Ks to beat George's Ks full of As, he knocks out George, wins this side pot, and receives the bounty for George.

This leaves John as a live stack, and Ringo as a live stack, to continue play, and each player has collect 1 bounty.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

)oops, sorry bill. You posted the answer. I really did NOT read down thru this and see it before I posted, I promise! )


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Last edited by JDean; Wed Jan 18, 2012 at 03:48 AM..
 
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Wed Jan 18, 2012, 03:52 PM
(#15)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
It is my understanding that in bounty tournies, you must KNOCK OUT an opponent to win their bounty.

This means in a situation where there is a main pot, and side pots, anyone all in in the main pot would be a bounty for the winner of the main pot; any one all in in a give side pot would be a bounty for the winner of that side pot.

When John moves in for his remaining 1800 in chips (over Paul's all in of 1100 over his BB), do Ringo and George both flat?
The fact both these palyers can still act seem to indicate they can, but you do not sy so explicitly.
Whether they flat, or move in themselves (either one) really does not effect things a whole lot if the 2nd shortest stack is all in by the end of the hand anyway, so I will assume George and Ringo flat John's all in...

This means going to the flop, we have a main pot of 1300 (Paul's total stack) + 1300 (from John's chips) + 1300 (Ringo) + 1300 (George) = 5200.
Only Paul is all in here, so the winner of the main pot gets Paul's bounty.
(Note: I am assuming Paul's total start stack is 1300, before antes or blinds. Tracking antes and blinds are un-necessary, as Paul's total stack including any blinds and antes he posted, is all in the pot; anyone calling that has added that total amount, so blinds and antes become moot.)

John has a Royal at show down, so he wins the main pot, and takes down Paul's bounty.

When John moves in pre flop over Paul's all in, he creates another side pot, between John, Ringo, and George.
When John makes his royal, he also wins this side pot, but since neither Ringo nor George were all in, no bounties are won.

Later in the hand, when moves all in for his remaining chips, and Ringo calls, that creates another side pot. Ringo receives back all his chips in excess of George's stack, and is not all in, so only George is all in. When Ringo makes As full of Ks to beat George's Ks full of As, he knocks out George, wins this side pot, and receives the bounty for George.

This leaves John as a live stack, and Ringo as a live stack, to continue play, and each player has collect 1 bounty.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

)oops, sorry bill. You posted the answer. I really did NOT read down thru this and see it before I posted, I promise! )
You are quite correct JD. but what is confusing certainly to the absolute beginner and by those not initiated into the nuances of Poker, is the fact that the side pots are decided FIRST.

So technically, because the Main has yet to be arbitrated, ALL FOUR players are still LIVE.

It would be far more logical to arbitrate the Main Pot first, which John wins, thus eliminating Paul, as he has now no further funds that can be invested, John receiving the Bounty on Paul.

Side Pot #1 judged secondly, which again John wins, but since the other two participants still have chips behind there is no bounty assigned to that pot.

And Side Pot #2 decided third, and since neither John or Paul have chips invested in this Pot, only George and Ringo are contesting it, and since George is All in Ringo gets George's Bounty having a better hand than George.

This would obviate any confusion, but unfortunately, this is not the way it is practiced.

 
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Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:11 AM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
While the side pots are distributed first Bill, it is the main pot which determines who is knocked out.

Everyone has equity in the main pot, so until that has been paid out, no one can be knocked out.

So for the purpose of bounties, it is actually the REVERSE order that prevails, if the winner of the main pot is a shorter stack...

This happens because a short stack can only take PART of a larger stack's chips in any hand, by winning the main pot. The larger stack would either lose any contributions made to a side pot to someone else, would receive his chips back, or win a side pot thus not be fully knocked out of the event.

See?


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