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1st hand disaster

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1st hand disaster - Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:22 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
my first hand of the day said to the mrs my only worry was 33 and well grrrrr....

*********** # 1 **************PokerStars Hand #74163279578: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/01/20 12:12:25 UTC [2012/01/20 7:12:25 ET]Table 'Notburga II' 9-max Seat #7 is the buttonSeat 1: holdemace486 ($0.80 in chips) Seat 2: MarcosMcc ($2 in chips) Seat 4: Belan666 ($5.18 in chips) Seat 5: Chinga4kuk ($4.03 in chips) Seat 6: zupekk ($2.17 in chips) Seat 7: prOn00b92 ($0.86 in chips) Seat 8: Telkes ($2 in chips) Telkes: posts small blind $0.01rs03rs03: is sitting out holdemace486: posts big blind $0.02*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to holdemace486 [Ad 8s]rs03rs03 leaves the tableMarcosMcc: folds Belan666: calls $0.02Chinga4kuk: folds zupekk: folds prOn00b92: calls $0.02Telkes: folds misak2012 joins the table at seat #3 holdemace486: checks *** FLOP *** [7s 3h Ah]holdemace486: bets $0.04taipi675711 joins the table at seat #9 Belan666: calls $0.04prOn00b92: raises $0.14 to $0.18holdemace486: raises $0.14 to $0.32Belan666: folds prOn00b92: raises $0.52 to $0.84 and is all-inholdemace486: calls $0.46 and is all-inUncalled bet ($0.06) returned to prOn00b92*** TURN *** [7s 3h Ah] [3s]*** RIVER *** [7s 3h Ah 3s] [Js]*** SHOW DOWN ***holdemace486: shows [Ad 8s] (two pair, Aces and Threes)prOn00b92: shows [3c 3d] (four of a kind, Threes)prOn00b92 collected $1.59 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1.67 | Rake $0.08 Board [7s 3h Ah 3s Js]Seat 1: holdemace486 (big blind) showed [Ad 8s] and lost with two pair, Aces and ThreesSeat 2: MarcosMcc folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: Belan666 folded on the FlopSeat 5: Chinga4kuk folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: zupekk folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: prOn00b92 (button) showed [3c 3d] and won ($1.59) with four of a kind, ThreesSeat 8: Telkes (small blind) folded before Flop

bad play i think but first hand grrrr.
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:30 AM
(#2)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I realise you have an Ace here but you are losing to so many better Aces in this spot.

It is always worth being courous when our oppentant jams we have no reads as this is our first hand on the table, so untill the oppenents have shown that they are shove happy maniacs you should assume that they can play.

It will not take long to find out who cannot and it may be in the first 1 or 2 orbits you lose a little value but by taking some time and good notes you will make fair more in the long run.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:28 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
PokerStars Hand #74163279578: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/01/20 12:12:25 UTC [2012/01/20 7:12:25 ET]
Table 'Notburga II' 9-max
Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: holdemace486 ($0.80 in chips)
Seat 2: MarcosMcc ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: Belan666 ($5.18 in chips)
Seat 5: Chinga4kuk ($4.03 in chips)
Seat 6: zupekk ($2.17 in chips)
Seat 7: prOn00b92 ($0.86 in chips)
Seat 8: Telkes ($2 in chips)
Telkes: posts small blind $0.01
rs03rs03: is sitting out
holdemace486: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to holdemace486 [Ad 8s]
rs03rs03 leaves the table
MarcosMcc: folds
Belan666: calls $0.02
Chinga4kuk: folds
zupekk: folds
prOn00b92: calls $0.02
Telkes: folds
misak2012 joins the table at seat #3
holdemace486: checks
*** FLOP *** [7s 3h Ah]
holdemace486: bets $0.04
taipi675711 joins the table at seat #9
Belan666: calls $0.04
prOn00b92: raises $0.14 to $0.18
holdemace486: raises $0.14 to $0.32
Belan666: folds
prOn00b92: raises $0.52 to $0.84 and is all-in
holdemace486: calls $0.46 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.06) returned to prOn00b92
*** TURN *** [7s 3h Ah] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [7s 3h Ah 3s] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
holdemace486: shows [Ad 8s] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
prOn00b92: shows [3c 3d] (four of a kind, Threes)
prOn00b92 collected $1.59 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.67 | Rake $0.08 Board [7s 3h Ah 3s Js]
Seat 1: holdemace486 (big blind) showed [Ad 8s] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 2: MarcosMcc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Belan666 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Chinga4kuk folded before Flop (didn't bet
)Seat 6: zupekk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: prOn00b92 (button) showed [3c 3d] and won ($1.59) with four of a kind, Threes
Seat 8: Telkes (small blind) folded before Flop

Hi HoldemAce486!

I must say I think you pretty badly over played your hand here.

First off, if the situation was good for you to stack off 40BB on top pair/8 kicker, why would it not be good enough to raise pre flop with that hand? (Please note, without more info than you provide, I am really NOT suggesting a raise here).

The benefit of a pre flop raise here is that you may have gotten the nominally BETTER hand pre flop, 33, to fold. A raise by you might have signaled to him that his "set mining" hand has little chance of winning the pot UNLESS he flops a set, and that might have been enough to cause that opponent to release.

Also, by raising you could have set yourself up with a situation that could be far easier for you to commit on a single pair hand, as players with draws or 2nd/3rd pairs on the flop may have been more reluctant to "give up" on their weak holdings in a larger pot.

Next...

If you did not deem the situation profitable for A8o to raise pre, then you allowed a pretty deep SPR of 13 to be created going to this flop. An SPR this deep really does not favor stacking off with a 1 pair hand only, since the cost of being "wrong" in your ranging is simply too high in relation to the reward of being "right", but seeing the villain fold.

What you essentially did in this hand by 3betting over prOn00b92's strong raise of your lead 2/3rds pot bet is place yourself in a situation where you have 43% of your remaining chips (after your lead bet) in the pot.

Do you have info that says prOn00b92 will FLAT that 3bet with a lesser hand than top pair/8 kicker? You did not put it out here if you did, but you NEED it in order to make your raise ok.

Do you have info to tell you that prOn00b92 will 4bet lighter than A8o here to put you in on a "bluff"? You did not put it out here if you did, but you NEED it in order to make your raise ok.

If you lack info to guide you as to the strength of your A8 hand here, you are simply risking too much of your stack by 3betting. In my opinion, if you are un-sure of his willingness to bluff, or raise a worse hand, but you THINK there is a strong possibility of it, you'd have been far better off FLATTING the raise to 14c, then re-assessing on the turn. You have some pretty decent showdown value, but only if you can get to showdown cheaply enough.

If you have no info on this opponent at all to judge whether he may or may not bluff, an immediate FOLD, before the pot size gets way out of hand, is an option too; afterall, sometimes good players do fold the best hand simply because the situation is not right.

The best I can do to help out in this situation is to tell you the hands which I WOULD have played much as you did here HEA486. Those are:

AA, A7, A8+ suited in hearts (assuming it was the 7h, and an off suit A, not the other way around), 77, and 33. That's it.

Any other hand is simply too risky to rush your stack in on the flop this deep after not raising pre.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:39 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi holdemace,

To add to what JDean said, when the villain raises you on the flop, what range of hands do you think he's doing this with? Then, when you 3-bet him are you re-raising for value or as a bluff? Clearly not a bluff as no better hands will fold, so the reraise must be for value. So now ask yourself what hands in his flop raising range are you getting value from if you 3b (which shows a lot of strength, certainly way more strength than you actually have).

It's important to range opponents reasonably and this is something to work on as you didn't do that here. You said to the mrs that the only hand you were worried about was 33, but there are many more hands in his range that are crushing you. 33, 77, A3, A7, A9, AT, AJ, and some players will even be limping in with AQ or AK (there are a lot of passive preflop players in 2NL and you have no reads yet). Maybe he can have some flush draws in his range too, if he were an aggressive player and would raise the draw with an ace on the board. But an aggressive player would have been much more likely to enter preflop for a raise over 1 limper, not limp along, so the little info we do have (what we've seen in this hand) takes away some of the draw possibility. Over all your equity vs. his flop raising range is likely very poor, making this a fold straight away (without further reads) imo. Even if the villain were a wild bluffer, it would still be better to just call the raise and check to him on the turn to induce more bluffing.

Also, please if you will, clean up your hand history (like JDean did) or use the replayer... it's difficult to read a hand history that's all lumped together in one paragraph and not really fair that a fellow member or hand analyzer should be cleaning this up for you, so when requesting feedback on a hand, help us out in this way.

Thanks,
Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
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Sat Jan 21, 2012, 04:01 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx jd and the langolier great analysis again as per normal,and i apologise for the post being all jumbled up,im copy and pasting from my email and for some reason this is how its pasting,i will try copy to notepad first,then cut and paste see if that works thx guys...
 
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Sat Jan 21, 2012, 05:10 AM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi holdemace,

To add to what JDean said, when the villain raises you on the flop, what range of hands do you think he's doing this with? Then, when you 3-bet him are you re-raising for value or as a bluff? Clearly not a bluff as no better hands will fold, so the reraise must be for value. So now ask yourself what hands in his flop raising range are you getting value from if you 3b (which shows a lot of strength, certainly way more strength than you actually have).

It's important to range opponents reasonably and this is something to work on as you didn't do that here. You said to the mrs that the only hand you were worried about was 33, but there are many more hands in his range that are crushing you. 33, 77, A3, A7, A9, AT, AJ, and some players will even be limping in with AQ or AK (there are a lot of passive preflop players in 2NL and you have no reads yet). Maybe he can have some flush draws in his range too, if he were an aggressive player and would raise the draw with an ace on the board. But an aggressive player would have been much more likely to enter preflop for a raise over 1 limper, not limp along, so the little info we do have (what we've seen in this hand) takes away some of the draw possibility. Over all your equity vs. his flop raising range is likely very poor, making this a fold straight away (without further reads) imo. Even if the villain were a wild bluffer, it would still be better to just call the raise and check to him on the turn to induce more bluffing.

Also, please if you will, clean up your hand history (like JDean did) or use the replayer... it's difficult to read a hand history that's all lumped together in one paragraph and not really fair that a fellow member or hand analyzer should be cleaning this up for you, so when requesting feedback on a hand, help us out in this way.

Thanks,
Dave
was not worried about any thing else because the opp would of raised 77 etc sorry should of said
 
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Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:22 AM
(#7)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
thx jd and the langolier great analysis again as per normal,and i apologise for the post being all jumbled up,im copy and pasting from my email and for some reason this is how its pasting,i will try copy to notepad first,then cut and paste see if that works thx guys...
You can also just use the instant hand history (click on the hand #), and copy the hand summary. Go to the hand replayer and use that instead of posting a wall of text. ...
 

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