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I need help. This is killing me !!!!

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I need help. This is killing me !!!! - Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:49 PM
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SkinyButPhat's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 258
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Ok,

This is why I am not progressing in the way I want at poker, especially NLHE.

Mind you the situation is as follows:

350 left on the Open League
I had previously ( within 10 hands tripled up via awesome play)
The guy who calls my raise had been fairly conservative to this point, so I figured he would not call anything, and essentially I was trying what I thought was a squeeze with the raise to collect the blinds and maybe induce a call at best.

I know that shoving all in here is not the best play, but heads up, late in a tourney against a non aggressive player with pocket JJ in the SB, I mean, is it really that horrific to do ??

If it was only about points, I could have sat out and with over 45BB, could have made it to the top 115 or so without playing another hand ( was 64th when this hand came along)

Please help !!!!! I am frustrated and feel like this type of play is holding me back......



I just do not know how this type of play can translate to cash. I feel like if i made this type of move in say a high buy in MTT, that there is now way the Ace Rag offsuit is going to make the play he did. Ok, say its one of the better Rags, but not even suited, and preflop??? Come on!!!?

Trying so hard to get better, to be an MTT player, but deep deep in tourneys, this happens.

Advice more than welcome !!!!!

Cheers

Skiny
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:33 AM
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SkinyButPhat's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 258
ChromeStar
sorry , mods can you move this to hand analysis ???

Thanks, I think I just put it under MTT and STT questions.

Peace

Deaner
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:35 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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***moved to appropriate section JWK24***

Hi Deaner!

The lesson here is standard raises. It's something that a player will need to learn, especially for cash tournies (trust me here, as I learned it the hard way).

Honestly, I think in a cash mtt, especially a larger buy-in, that type of preflop raise will be called even more of the time and here's why.

At this blind level, a std raise is in the 2.5BB range (3k). A larger raise from the SB here looks really fishy, as it's a non standard raise. Players, especially at the higher level buy-ins, will pick up on this really quick and will call with much less hands, as they could easily put a player making a larger raise on a bluff. Changing bet sizes, especially online as the other players can't be seen, is the largest and easiest tell for an online player to pick up on.

As an example: here's for the one hand, but will apply to any blind level in any tourney.
The stacks are also much too deep to be open-shoving, as you say.
I'd have raised to 3k, if shoved on, then it's down to a read on the opp as to whether I'd call or fold. If I saw the flop for 3k and saw an overcard, then I could easily fold the hand.

By making standard raises, a player can both get value from a hand, but it also conceals the two cards that a player has. I'd make the same opening raise with AA, or AK or 88 or 27. If the bet sizes are consistant, it keeps the opps guessing as to exactly how strong of a hand that I'd have.
It also gives me more options after the flop, as the opponent doesn't know if I've got a monster hand, am on a bluff, or anywhere in between.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:47 AM
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SkinyButPhat's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 258
ChromeStar
So,

By making too large a raise in this position, I actually make myself look like the bluffer, and induced his call............I get that !!!

So, keep the bets standard and try not to go for the overkill.

I am thinking then that with his shove all in, my reply should have been fold, as it just was not worth the coin flip to lose all my chips in one go?

Might I also add I played one hand, with 760 chips the entire tourney until about 1600 runners to go. I was too busy watching Grade B play his two tourneys (lol, no not a stalker, just same time zone and usually same tourneys), and I did not want to lose points in league.

I guess I got chip happy and made the bad play. But thanks big guy, I will learn, I swear !!!

Cheers and thanks

Deaner
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinyButPhat View Post
So,

By making too large a raise in this position, I actually make myself look like the bluffer, and induced his call............I get that !!!

So, keep the bets standard and try not to go for the overkill.

I am thinking then that with his shove all in, my reply should have been fold, as it just was not worth the coin flip to lose all my chips in one go?

Might I also add I played one hand, with 760 chips the entire tourney until about 1600 runners to go. I was too busy watching Grade B play his two tourneys (lol, no not a stalker, just same time zone and usually same tourneys), and I did not want to lose points in league.

I guess I got chip happy and made the bad play. But thanks big guy, I will learn, I swear !!!

Cheers and thanks

Deaner
Man i can't beleive you just blamed me for his bluff attempt...

When i watched it with no reads I had two conflecting thoughts.....

1. Hes bluffing to push you off the pot (and ATo is a good back up if he thinks you are making a move in any MTT- its unlikly you have AA and so if his read is wrong he could get lucky and snag the A.), At this point in PSO is he a reg worried about points _ or are you, if he has that read on you he may force you to lay down good holdings JJ TT AKo. after all its blind vs blind so you could just be stealing here from his point or view. (gosh i do waffle on a bit) any way in this case i'm calling.

2. He has the goods - AA-JJ or AKs and i'm doomed with no read i'm looking at my points a win here and i'm laughing a loss and i'm crippled. What can i say i guess if i believe he has it i could fold but with no reads I'm disinclinded to believe that he got it in the bb when i have mine!! (hmm is this why i don't run deep....could be)

Conclusion, i think his play was ok he hoped to move you off your hand and pick up chips with a back up plan that if you really didi have a hand he could still luck out.

Even if he thinks you would call with the top 5% hands he is still 33% to win the hand.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Dew sum werk! - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Mis T Fire's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 33
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Simply put it's called gambling. All you can dew is take it as a lesson learned....which lesson is some people are more willing to call with rags off suited than not! It was the best you could of done in the situation. Keep your chin up! We all have these experiences. My best advice? Dew sum werk! Good luck to you!

Misty
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 01:40 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinyButPhat View Post
I am thinking then that with his shove all in, my reply should have been fold, as it just was not worth the coin flip to lose all my chips in one go?
Hey Deaner!

100% correct
The league tournies are only about survival to get as many points as possible, taking the least number of chances as possible. AA or KK, I'm calling, but anything less, I'd fold here and move up the leaderboard to be able to accumulate more points.

It took me a good bit of time to realize a number of these types of things, especially this one as I varied my bets for years before I was shown this (Thanks Dave!).

I also was 'chip happy' the first 3-4 months that I played as an online rookie, a few years ago too.... learned that one the hard way too, but figured that one out on my own by busting out way too many times, way too early in the tournies.

It'll take time for you too, but every little bit that you can learn and apply to your game, the better player that you'll be in the long run..... which is the ultimate goal.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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PSO League - a different animal - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 03:21 PM
(#8)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinyButPhat View Post
Ok,
Mind you the situation is as follows:

350 left on the Open League
The PSO League is a different animal then most MTT's. The main object is not to bust out early! Once you past the point of losing points, the points progress slowly; it's at this point you can start to gamble and take more chances.

Your first mistake was that your PFR was way too high; did you have a plan, incase he showed any aggressive action? Secondly, a call here is very risky because even if you're ahead, any over card can take the pot down 30% of the time; any 2 over cards have a 42% chance of winning. Because this is a point structured tourney, and that you can lose too much distance on the ladder (compared to climbing up the ladder), it's not worth the risk. I was surprised to see that he shoved with AT; check his ladder status, I'm sure he's not in the money.

You can't take the skill you learn from the PSO league into a regular MTT (apples and oranges). The PSO league better compares to a Satellite. Don't get discouraged, keep studying, and playing; it all come with time, and experience.
.
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 03:38 PM
(#9)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post

You can't take the skill you learn from the PSO league into a regular MTT (apples and oranges). The PSO league better compares to a Satellite. Don't get discouraged, keep studying, and playing; it all come with time, and experience.
.

I have to dis-agree with you there
I have taken many things from PSO league games into 'normal' MTT's
Such as patience/position/bet sizing
All things I have learnt here



BTW to OP , I would have folded to the shove and move onto the next stall and fold hand to accumilate more points

 
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PSO essential = play NITty - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:05 PM
(#10)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike8998 View Post
I have to dis-agree with you there
I have taken many things from PSO league games into 'normal' MTT's
Such as patience/position/bet sizing
All things I have learnt here
The three skills you mention are very basic skills that can be learned from books, PSO videos, and practical experience. Not that these skills are unimportant, but that being said, you can learn them outside of the PSO league. If you try to use your essential PSO skills (folding into the points), which reward the extreme NITty player, you will rarely (if ever) make it through the late middle stage of an MTT.
.
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:11 PM
(#11)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike8998 View Post
I have to dis-agree with you there
I have taken many things from PSO league games into 'normal' MTT's
Such as patience/position/bet sizing
All things I have learnt here



BTW to OP , I would have folded to the shove and move onto the next stall and fold hand to accumilate more points


When we get down to 1500 players in the open i start playing poker.. So is this wrong i should stall fold all the way?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:16 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
When we get down to 1500 players in the open i start playing poker.. So is this wrong i should stall fold all the way?

Grade b
Hey Gradeb!

In the old leagues, I'd start playing when we were down to about 4-5 tables left. Before then, do whatever I had to in order to last longer.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:36 PM
(#13)
SkinyButPhat's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 258
ChromeStar
No worries all, I did get the main lesson out of this :

The preflop raise was way too big and not really necessary. I was trying to steal blinds from a guy that essentially I should have either a) called or b) raised 2.5-3 x the blinds, not almost 6 !!!

I made myself a target, and overreacted to his all in shove by shoving myself. He played me perfectly and I did not. I made a fatal error of ASSUMING he had diddly, when he had A10, which gives him the overcard on a coin flip, and, the results can be seen.

Patience young grasshopper is the motto here, and learn how to properly bet !!!!! I was heads up and I got excited, now I just need to keep the old emotions in check, and play better, and voila, success will come !!!

Thanks all !!!

Cheers

Skiny
 
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Calling PF is a bad option - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:57 PM
(#14)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinyButPhat View Post
No worries all, I did get the main lesson out of this :

The preflop raise was way too big and not really necessary. I was trying to steal blinds from a guy that essentially I should have either a) called or b) raised 2.5-3 x the blinds, not almost 6 !!!
You should never call with JJ in this situation. A PFR is in order, but not the size you used.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinyButPhat View Post
I made myself a target, and overreacted to his all in shove by shoving myself. He played me perfectly and I did not. I made a fatal error of ASSUMING he had diddly, when he had A10, which gives him the overcard on a coin flip, and, the results can be seen.
He didn't play you perfectly. If he knew you would fold to his shove (because you passed out), then it's a good shove. This wasn't a coin flip, you were a big favorite going in; you had 71% equity.
.
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:45 PM
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SkinyButPhat's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 258
ChromeStar
Well,

Equity..... I really need to get a grasp on that one. I am an accountant, so I know what it means in my world, but applied to poker , not so much.

To your earlier point, if learning in Open is not applicable Cash MTT's, is it reasonable to say that playing Cash would not give you any better odd playing in the Open?

What an intersting experiment that would be. Get some of the Pokerstars greats like ImDaNuts, Big_Nemo, OneBigAcehole etc....and get them to play Open League for a month, I bet their nerves would be frayed with so much crazy play compared to $1050 buy ins etc...........

But never fear, I still get the part about raising too high. I see what you are saying about never just calling here and making a move, just a lesser move than I did make. It is correct though that regardless of my raise (2.5 even) I should have folded the shove all in, correct?

Last edited by SkinyButPhat; Tue Jan 24, 2012 at 11:49 PM..
 
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Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:11 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Hey Deaner!

For learning about equity, take a look at these videos from Dave. 26, 2, 14, 20, 21, 36, 39, 40

It's a bunch of info, but some to all of each of these will apply.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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