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Top 2 pairs & opp 4bet shoves

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Top 2 pairs & opp 4bet shoves - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:37 PM
(#1)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Hi! although the opp is a regular but I have not picked up any reads on the opp yet.



I think we can eliminate A,A or J,J in this spot, firstly I would expect to get re-raise especially opening the pot from steal position and secondly we have an A & a J so it makes it unlikely the opp is holding a pair Aces or Jacks. The other hand which is a threat to our hand is 8,8 which is more likely as the opp has flat called the pre-flop raise in the bb.

Since we are not getting very good odds to call what is the best course of action to take here? Was it the right move to 3bet on the flop?

Cheers.
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:08 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi dedeyez!

Tough spot indeed!

First, I have to suspect your ranging in taking out JJ from this guy's range Dedeyez. You say you lack info, but you have removed JJ. some players view JJ oop as a middle pp since it will see at least 1 over more than half the time, and others play it faster. You do not really know which type this guy is. I do agree with you aobut AA, but JJ is not necessarily out of his range for BB flat.

Next...

Top 2 pair is the sort of hand that doesn't mind stacking off on the depth of money here. Yes, 88 can be ahead, but when you've down graded AA and JJ, then that leaves only 88 as a reasonable hand that beats you. What I'd be asking myself is:

A) will he play AQ/AK like this?
B) will he defend his blind on A8 with a flat versus my raise range?
C) will he be the type to aggro move on a semi bluff C/R with a hand like T9?
D) will he try ANY "power bluff" moves to defend his blinds?

You do not have the info to answer these effectively, so it is kind of a coin flip for you really.

In my opinion, I think I go ahead and pull the trigger here, simply because I did elect to 3bet the C/R. I have acted to build the pot earlier than I had to, and there is probably enough chance he is on AK/AQ that I think I go for it.

But I also must admit, I am the type who plays a high variance cash game, and as a LAG player, it is far more likely opponents will over value AK/AQ versus me. If your image is not one which favors 3betting a C/R very often, then you may feel differently about this spot and find a fold.

As for 3betting the flop or not, that is a good question...

You have good value in your hand, but not a ton of info.

I think a 3bet is fine, but if you do not want to get all in, then a flat or a fold now is better (although I'd say a fold is a bit weak). I think your 3bet amount was a little small, and it should have been around $2.70 to $3.15 go if you intended to commit, and if you did not intend to commit then no 3bet is better than a small one.

You can re-assess on the turn with a call line, and see if the guy keeps betting hard, or even fold if you are totally un-sure. But 3betting a small-ish amount is not going to fold out a set (neither will 3betting big), so unless I was intending to play for stack's, I do not think I'd do it at all.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Tue Jan 24, 2012 at 08:24 PM..
 
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Mirror? - Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:07 PM
(#3)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
On hand which we forgot to mention is your self hand mirror aka AJ suited I think it is strong enough to call only preflop and since suited it has extra potential with straights and nuts flushes too... And of course he would be acting just like that.... Even if difficult to hand the same hand on the net it happens a lot of time for example today I saw AQ vs AQ and the flop was A10A and AK vs AK with the flop being 8A10. Else JJ, 88, Or maybe AK but with AK he might act be aggressively if maybe he has a wrong read on you like being too active on the table on that hand or hesaw you bluffing or barrelling or calling 2 or 3 streets... All these info connect be forgotten.

Etienne
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:23 AM
(#4)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
As for 3betting the flop or not, that is a good question...

You have good value in your hand, but not a ton of info.

I think a 3bet is fine, but if you do not want to get all in, then a flat or a fold now is better (although I'd say a fold is a bit weak). I think your 3bet amount was a little small, and it should have been around $2.70 to $3.15 go if you intended to commit, and if you did not intend to commit then no 3bet is better than a small one.

You can re-assess on the turn with a call line, and see if the guy keeps betting hard, or even fold if you are totally un-sure. But 3betting a small-ish amount is not going to fold out a set (neither will 3betting big), so unless I was intending to play for stack's, I do not think I'd do it at all.

Hope it helps.

-JDean
Hi! Dave thanks for your comments. I take your point on board about the size of our 3bet. But once I 3bet I was clear in my mind to play for stacks if that be the case. In the end I called and our two pairs were ahead as the opp was goofing around with Q,10o for double gutter and we managed to dodge 8 outs twice. Not only won the pot but picked up some reads on the opp as well

Cheers.

Last edited by deadeyz; Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 12:25 AM.. Reason: add info
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:24 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadeyz View Post
Hi! Dave thanks for your comments. I take your point on board about the size of our 3bet. But once I 3bet I was clear in my mind to play for stacks if that be the case. In the end I called and our two pairs were ahead as the opp was goofing around with Q,10o for double gutter and we managed to dodge 8 outs twice. Not only won the pot but picked up some reads on the opp as well

Cheers.
If you were all set to play for stacks, I'd still prefer a larger 3bet. If a K falls (or a Q) will you "lose heart"? Making a larger 3bet helps prevent that possibility, and is probably as likely to get called by someone who C/R's you in the first place, as is the smaller 3bet.

Still, the important part is committing in your mind. And if a smaller 3bet does that, then it may be that a villain will be more likely to "attack" that bet too...


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