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How I played - Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:31 PM
(#1)
cletero's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Hi, just wanted to request hand evaluation on this type of situation:
 
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Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:21 PM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hey cletero,

No expert but one or two thoughts.

Everyone limps before you but you are out of position post flop even though KQx is a reasonable hand. If I was going to play this hand from the small blind I would open for a raise, definitely not limp.

You hit your pair, with K kicker and raise just over half pot. In this case I would be inclined towards a higher raise to protect my hand; remember everyone limped, so unless they were slow playing monsters (which I would doubt without having seen evidence from previous hands), you should be ahead here.

Button is the only caller, but he is a short stack, and short stacks want to play for stacks and they do not necessarily have to have a good hand to do so. I would have checked the turn for pot control because it is possible he has the Ace and your whole line has been saying Q, high sort of kicker; if you had bet pre flop though the story of having AQ would be more probable.

The diamond is a real scare card and checking gives the opponent the initiative. He bets a third of the pot, he could have the A, he could have the flush, he could have air, but having invested so much in the pot I feel you need to make that call. You might lose the hand but at least you get to see his cards for any future clash you have with him.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Jan 26, 2012, 01:03 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi cletero,

I think your biggest question is how to proceed on the river, I too would call here as I think we are still ahead the large majority of the time.

I think back door diamonds aren't much concern, he's calling the flop either with a made hand or draw, so there's very few combos of 2 diamonds he can hold. Many of his 1 pair hands will be a Q with worse kicker, so those can't make diamonds since the Q is on the board. He can't have a hand like Ad8d since the ace is on the board. He can show up with diamonds sometimes, but it will be just a few combos that are reasonable, like Td9d, 9d7d, 7d5d. The most likely draws (all the straight draw combos) all missed. I wouldn't expect the villain to have 2 pair+ as they will generally raise either the flop or turn with that strong a holding. And the 3 on the river is unlikely to make him 2 pair.

So I think the majority of his range on the river here will be Qx and busted straight draws, with perhaps some aces that he peeled the flop with just ace high if he's a weak player. Whether or not to bet or check/call depends on how much we know about the player. If a player is bluffy, I like check-calling more because they'll always bluff a busted draw and might shove QT for no logical reason too. If they are more calling station, then I much prefer to value bet myself, since a station will tend to check down QT but always call with it, as well as other weak 1 pair hands that don't belong in this far like 98 and 77.

In the absence of any info, I think check-call is fine given that there may be a fair number of busted straight draws he can be holding, and the 3rd diamond provides a card he may perceive scares us. I honestly wouldn't mind another value bet to get paid by QT either.

Dave


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Thu Jan 26, 2012, 05:40 AM
(#4)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
I would simply check the river and call the small bet as if you betted he would have reraised with that board and than you would have had more problems to call...
 
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Thu Jan 26, 2012, 09:33 AM
(#5)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
In the future please provide as much context as possible as well as a specific question.

When limping KQs into a multiway pot your basically playing it as a speculative hand. Your hoping to land big straights or flushes (or draws) on the flop. Hitting one pair with so many other people in the pot is going to get you into a lot of trouble when taking it to showdown. Not saying that you have to fold everytime you flop top pair in this situation, but be very careful how you proceed.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 09:41 AM..
 
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How about this AA lost - Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:35 PM
(#6)
cletero's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 54
How about this hand, I can't even remember when was the last time I won with AA all in (i beat the odds, shouldn't I be winning 80% of them? I'm more like LOOSING 80%), but maybe here it was my fault, should I have folded when he re-raised the turn?? Not much info on the player, I was starting on this table, but as you can see, he was playing pretty loose.

 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:47 PM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi there i think pretty much you said it yourself no info on the opp and yes should of folded the turn,

you say the opp was lose but he only limped in utg and then had pot odds to call for the flop
preflop bet was a bit weak that put you in this spot in my opinion

preflop i would raise 10x personally suggesting a strong hand
remember for a few cents some people do not see it has a 3 x bet but only 6 cents.

hope this helps..
 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:49 PM
(#8)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cletero View Post
How about this hand, I can't even remember when was the last time I won with AA all in (i beat the odds, shouldn't I be winning 80% of them? I'm more like LOOSING 80%), but maybe here it was my fault, should I have folded when he re-raised the turn?? Not much info on the player, I was starting on this table, but as you can see, he was playing pretty loose.
Hi! Cletero, I am still learning myself but I would have raised a bit more pre-flop 3x or 4x plus 1bb for limper as you want to try to play A,A preferably heads up or 3 way. The value of A,A goes down in a multiway pot. Your flop bet is good, you want to charge the max if someone is drawing. The opp had been passive the whole hand so when he donk bets on the turn, personally I would flat call for pot control as the opp could easily have Q,J or two pairs (which was the case here). At the end of the we have only a pair and on the turn our hand is quite vulnerable, especially when the opp 3bets more often than not our hands is not good in this spot.

If we had flat called on the turn the pot would have been 87c. We could then evaluate the situation on the river and maybe call a smallish bet. This way we would have lost the minimum.

You just got unlucky on the turn but the way hand played out I think its better to go for pot control in these kind of situations.

Cheers.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:52 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi again,

In the future please post only 1 hand per thread, always start a new thread for a 2nd hand so the discussions don't get confused.

Preflop I generally will raise more for value with AA after a limper, I'm making it .08c-.10c to go. If the player(s) are loose and will give the extra value, let's take it.

Flop action is ok, on the turn the guy suddenly donks into you for a small bet relative to the pot size. He's basically saying the king helped him, so let's range him, how does the king help? In one of 3 ways:

-It makes him top pair
-It makes him 2 pair
-It gives him a flush draw

The really small bet might be any of these 3. I think I like raising here too, but your raise is way too small... the pot contains .77c and you're only raising .10c more. If he's leading small to try and buy a cheap river card with a draw, your raise gives him his wish. If he's trying to get to showdown cheaply with top pair, it does the same. I would probably raise to about .50c, 5x his bet size... this will likely get bad calls from flush draws, definitely get called by top pair, so we extract value from both, and if he comes over the top and 3-bets, we can evaluate based on raise sizing whether to fold or if we have a good price to call, but assume we are usually behind at that point to kings up as the line is very strong.

Dave


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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 04:10 AM
(#10)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Dave if I could add a 4th possibility to the list he holds QJ (suited or no) and turns the nut straight. It's 2NL after all and peeps in 2NL loves them some any 2 Broadway card hands so QJ is definitely in his range to commit the limp and then call cletero's pre-flop raise. Once he gets the OESD he ain't going anywhere very easily.

I also thought maybe 33 for a minute but the betting after the K on the turn doesn't make sense for that (of course that doesn't rule it out in 2NL...) as a player wanting to milk cletero here after connecting their set mine were they scared by the turn card would want to get more money into the pot than a .10 bet to run off the flush draws. So yeah...say it's rarely going to be 33 here. But in 2NL I found one can never rule out anything.

When I first looked at the hand and saw that fishy little .10 bet into a .67 pot I was really thinking QJ would be the show though.

With you all the way on cletero's betting,needs to be .08/.10 pre and bigger on the turn for sure. Then if he comes over it's a "scrunchy" spot. Probably we're beat though. Like the flop raise cletero,semi-connected board with the 109 flopping that's a good sized bet there. It may not chase away a OESD but at least you're making him pay to peel another card so if it's a blank we're extracting value. And then make him do so again on the turn....how deep is he willing to go to peel a river card?





Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
hi there i think pretty much you said it yourself no info on the opp and yes should of folded the turn,

you say the opp was lose but he only limped in utg and then had pot odds to call for the flop
preflop bet was a bit weak that put you in this spot in my opinion

preflop i would raise 10x personally suggesting a strong hand
remember for a few cents some people do not see it has a 3 x bet but only 6 cents.

hope this helps..

Holdem I want you to take a minute and think about your reasoning here as juxtaposed to your thinking in RabbiitGiirl's post in the tourney analysis section on bluffing the A6o hand.

Here you advise cletero to raise it 10x to chase off the hands. While we hold AA. And in that one you want her to call a raise with A6o. Dude you have your thinking back asswards here,think this is part of the problem.

AA you can't be afraid of letting people call your value bets to extract maximum value from them. Over betting the pot because we're afraid someone may suck out on us is punting value. Now if they DO hit a coordinated board as the villain here does then we have to be able to suss out their likely range and assess the hand as we go along by the line they take. And that means being able to find our fold button if necessary.

But we DO NOT take a defensive line with AA from the get go. And over betting the pot to chase players out is a defensive line. Yes you want to do as Dave said above and make it .08 to .10 to go,if we normally make all our raises 3 and/or 4x then .08 and .10 is perfect because that's our standard raise plus another bb for the limper. And that is the other problem with your reasoning here...if you are raising your premium hands bigger than your other hands (which if you would do this with say QQ-AA here,I'm assuming you would NOT do it with say 88...) then that's a tell. And not all of the players at even 2NL are inattentive enough to not pick up on that.

I already explained the fallacy,as I see it,in the call with A6o in the other thread,so I'll wind it up with this...when you have premium hands the goal is to maximize your winnings but extracting as much value as possible. When you have dodgy to just plain rubbish hands (which is what A6o IS holdem) the goal is to lose as little as possible.

You're running at cross purposes to these goals in your thinking here bud.

Hope that helps some.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 04:15 AM..
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:44 AM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
i see your point here moxi i really do,but the rational thinking off people at 1c 2c does not seem the same as perhaps 10 25c.i would of wanted to make a statement at this table that i had aces,especially if i had just come on early in a game and the opps also had no read on me.
that was the thinking behind my logic because as a soon to be x donk lol i would of just saw that as 6c and was getting great value when the others called.thats all mate i would nether suggest in touney or at higher stakes to do that with aces.
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:04 AM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Dave if I could add a 4th possibility to the list he holds QJ (suited or no) and turns the nut straight. It's 2NL after all and peeps in 2NL loves them some any 2 Broadway card hands so QJ is definitely in his range to commit the limp and then call cletero's pre-flop raise. Once he gets the OESD he ain't going anywhere very easily.
Yes for sure, good catch, he can have QJ too... I missed it. His line is really weird for turning the nuts, most players would either bet large or check-raise, not bet small with the nuts, but like you said it's 2NL and we'll see a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense.


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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:09 AM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
i would of wanted to make a statement at this table that i had aces,especially if i had just come on early in a game and the opps also had no read on me.
I'm not convinced that 10x opening will convince any of the 2NL randoms of this, we don't even know who's thinking about what we have.... but in a general sense I don't like this line of thinking at all, as what you're basically saying is you want to turn your hand face up. Why? Opponents will make many more mistakes against us if our range is wide generally, and if (on the other end of the spectrum) they know exactly what we have, they'll probably make really good decisions and no mistakes. Fundamental Theorem ftw.


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