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how to play AKo against 4 oppenents (and your short stack)

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how to play AKo against 4 oppenents (and your short stack) - Thu Jan 26, 2012, 08:57 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Reads - ok confession i was total out of it so sorry but zero....

Tourny is a STT bounty with 1.50 buy in.



Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Thu Jan 26, 2012, 09:07 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
15bb is an awkward stack size to play postflop, and you're OOP which only makes things worse. You can jam preflop and easily catch a lot of junk, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. You can also go-and-go by raising to an amount around t450 to create an SPR of 1 (assuming you get only one caller) and jam any flop. Both of these plays are winning lines that take a good hand and give it even more value by adding lots of fold equity, but you need to appear very aggressive to get the most folds possible. I personally prefer jamming preflop, because if you raise smaller, you might get multiple callers, in which case your hand will fare very badly if you do not flop a pair.

The only real problem with your line is that it makes it easy for calling stations to justify calling you down. You don't look aggressive, so it's easy for people to put you on a c-bet bluff and call with something like bottom pair. You should be trying to leverage as much fold equity as possible, so I think making a large all-in at some point is optimal. The way you played it is probably still +EV, but it can only help you to add fold equity by showing more aggression.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 09:09 PM..
 
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Must have been beer night - Fri Jan 27, 2012, 03:40 AM
(#3)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Reads - ok confession i was total out of it so sorry but zero....

Tourny is a STT bounty with 1.50 buy in.
Things we know: No reads; your sitting 4th in chips (15BB’s), out of 5 players; you are a good margin from the 3rd place chip stack; 3 places get paid (50%; 30%; 20%); there’s a bounty for taking out players (not sure how much – I’ll assume 1/3 entry); not sure if this is a turbo or not (doesn’t matter for this hand); UTG limped, big stack folded, BTN just limped as well, and the action is on you; there are 350 chips in the pot (25% of your current stack).

I don’t know what you expected to happen when you put in 27% of your stack. Maybe your intention was to get the limpy BTN to join you, or induce a shove to threaten your bounty (so that you can call); I just don’t know what your plan was. This line will get you in trouble more times then not.

As played, with a SPR of 1, I guess you have to play a ‘stop and go’ line (OOP shove AI), especially on this semi-dry flop. But, once again I’m surprised at your line; I don’t see any pair folding here. Looks like you’re in it for the long haul, now that you just invested 66% of your stack.

Surprised to see that you weren’t more aggressive (3bet shove PF), especially when you might have increased your stack by 25%, without seeing a flop. I know you’re a better player then this line shows. Guess this can be chalked up to a late night, and a couple of beers.
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Fri Jan 27, 2012, 04:16 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi Grade b,

This one has been sitting for a while, so I thought I'd chime in...

15BB with just limpers, I think I am just going ahead and jamming AK pre flop.

With stacks such as these here, none really able to make an extremely loose post flop call, my best chance of getting my chips in while ahead is pre flop.

On the flop I could easily see a situation where the villain has improved and I have not, therefore I may wind up trading good solid equity pre flop, for a much worse situation on the flop. Also, if I improve and my opponent does not, I may not get anything additional from him. To me, an all in pre flop decision neatly solves both these problems:

- If he out flops me, oh well at least I got my chips in good and have 2 more streets to possibly suck out.
- If he does NOT out flop me, he has no chance to save any of his stack.

In my opinion, a "stop and go" play where you flat the limp and jam the flop is not really suitable here when facing stacks that have a similar need as you to chip up. This play does not add any additional chips that you might have won had you went all in (or raised any amount and gotten called), and it is also un-likely to fold out strong top pair type hands when your opponents are in great need of chips too. This play does have the benefit of perhaps folding out weaker 2nd or 3rd pair hits that may see your opponents ahead of you on your flop misses, so I think I'd still (slightly) prefer it over your play simply because this is a bubble situation.

I cannot say I really like your line though, of raising to 400 pre flop.

Yes, that action DOES add chips to the pot that you'd not likely get had you limped to try a stop and go and flopped top/top, but it also creates and extremely low SPR going to the flop. That low SPR when facing opponents who have a similar "need" to chip up as you does not bode well for you folding out ANY "better" hand on the flop by any action you could take. Remember, about 2/3rds of the time you will have A high on the flop so that 2/3rds of the time you will be "bluffing" on your AK. If you DO spike the flop this isn't a bad play, as you can easily commit yourself with a top/top hand, but again, un-like an all in pre flop that gets called, you would be far less likely to extract maximum value from a caller.

Betting as you did on the flop, less than all in, really makes little sense to me to be honest. All this serves to do is lay BIG odds to a caller so it fails to work as a bluff very well. It also fails to extract maximum value in case you are ahead, and allows lesser hands to linger in the pot to possibly spike on you. Just meh all around in my opinion.

So Grade b, to me this looks like a spot where you may have been trying to "massage" greater value out of AK than you really should have been trying for when the pre flop pot alone is so valuable to your standing in this event. That massaging is great when you flop well, but when you don't you fall flat on your face too often, with a great gob of chips already in the middle. When the stacks are all this close, there really is no room to get cute on a 15BB stack; just get 'em in pre flop and either take does the 350 in limps and blinds and be happy, or get called and race for a double up.

Far more often than not you will be at least a race, if not much better than one, and fading that spot (if you get called) will make you the chip leader.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 05:01 AM..
 
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Fri Jan 27, 2012, 07:57 AM
(#5)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty everyone for replys,

for the record the 1.50's have a bounty of 27 cents (18%) and are not turbos.

When i reviewed this (prompted by a reply from Sandtrap777), i should have just Jammed Preflop (no beers just inattention). Then when i missed the flop it was a clear Jam or Fold (leaning towards a the fold).

I posted this hand as an example of the mess you can get in when you don't concentrate on your games.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 27, 2012, 02:49 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Hi,

For me, with a 15 bb stack and 2 limpers, I'm jamming pre all day long with AK. There's been some good discussion about the different options here so I won't delve back into those, but I think my best option is to leverage maximum fold equity to pick up the 350 out there already, with a hand that plays well against a callers range when they don't all fold.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
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