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Bet on turn?

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Bet on turn? - Sat Jan 28, 2012, 06:57 AM
(#1)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
I did get what i wanted at the end (his chippies) ,
But my question is if i should made a bet on turn? And maybe should of bet more preflop and on flop?

$2,50 90 man sng

 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 07:13 AM
(#2)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
It's still pretty early in the tournament, si I would probably just muck the KJ suited here. Both cards are easily dominated by an AJ or AK (typical hands that call you), and if you hit the flush draw it could be an expensive waste of chips to pursue the flush. Plus - there's 5 people to act behind you - what do you do if one of them 3-bets you? Call, or shove? KJ suited is definitely not a shoving hand this early.

As it is, you bet, in which case a near-3x raise is just fine. Only the BB calls, meaning you do have position, which is nice.

The flop misses, so you're left with a K high. He checks, so a c-bet is acceptable. Plus - he probably won't have a good ace or he would probably 3-bet preflop. Your bet here is half pot, I always like to make it a bit larger. You're giving him 33% odds here, whioch isn't enough to chase off the flush draw.

The turn misses the flush, but adds a few straight draws. KQ (which has you beat already) and KJ, but also the QJ are likely holdings. Less likely will be the J8 and 87.n It's checked to you. I probably would check behind to see what the river brings.

The river's the gin card of course.

I think you shouldn't have been in the pot preflop, and he should have folded to the flop bet to begin with. His river shove is completely out of line. In the long run, the playing of KJ here won't be a profitable one.

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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:35 AM
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 12:43 PM
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Hi RaBBiiTGiirl!

Depending on how the table was playing, I'd tend to muck KJs from mid position, but if folded to me, I'd play it from late. If the hijack and cutoff were folding to preflop raises, I'd be much more tempted to play it.

If opening with it, I'd make a standard normal opening raise (for me it's 150 at this level, but 143 if it's a standard open definitely works too).

The flop totally misses and has a flush draw and the BB checks. With the check, I like the c-bet here and I also like the size of it at 1/2 pot. This not only looks like a value bet, but with a single opponent, makes them drawing at a flush a -EV play.

The turn is another miss, but KJ does pick up a gutshot straight draw. The opp checks again and I like the check behind for pot control. Also, I would not want to give the opp a chance to check/raise when I actually have a draw now.

The river is the card I'd want to see, a non diamond Q. I'd want to make whatever bet here I thought the opp would call and about 1/3 pot is what I'd bet too. When the opp shoves over, it's an easy call with the nuts.

I like the preflop and flop bets, as they are std bets for this level and pot. I also like the turn check, as KJ would have to fold to a check/raise. If playing KJs here, I think it was very well played.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 03:34 PM
(#5)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi RaBBiiTGiirl!

Depending on how the table was playing, I'd tend to muck KJs from mid position, but if folded to me, I'd play it from late. If the hijack and cutoff were folding to preflop raises, I'd be much more tempted to play it.

If opening with it, I'd make a standard normal opening raise (for me it's 150 at this level, but 143 if it's a standard open definitely works too).

The flop totally misses and has a flush draw and the BB checks. With the check, I like the c-bet here and I also like the size of it at 1/2 pot. This not only looks like a value bet, but with a single opponent, makes them drawing at a flush a -EV play.

The turn is another miss, but KJ does pick up a gutshot straight draw. The opp checks again and I like the check behind for pot control. Also, I would not want to give the opp a chance to check/raise when I actually have a draw now.

The river is the card I'd want to see, a non diamond Q. I'd want to make whatever bet here I thought the opp would call and about 1/3 pot is what I'd bet too. When the opp shoves over, it's an easy call with the nuts.

I like the preflop and flop bets, as they are std bets for this level and pot. I also like the turn check, as KJ would have to fold to a check/raise. If playing KJs here, I think it was very well played.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

Thank you for the great answer
 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 04:19 PM
(#6)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Hi RaBBiiTGiiRL,

I think you played this fine. Preflop raise is pretty standard if a little on the large side. Flop c-bet is very standard on the ace high board--it's hard for him to have an ace, there are a lot of aces in your range, and you have overs to any other pair and a couple backdoor draws, and the only draw out there is a diamond draw (you're not deep enough for 67, 78, 68, 23, 24, 34 to count). If this were a cash game you should also be betting the turn with a gutshot and two overcards to middle pair. But that would commit you to the pot with K-high on the river. And the river is fine obviously.

However, generally you don't want to c-bet the flop unless you feel comfortable firing a lot of turns as well. Consider checking back the flop. You often have the best hand and you keep the pot small. But, any hand he has can have a lot of equity against you. His smaller cards like 86, have not just the 4-out gutshot draw, but also 6 pair outs. So while you often have the best hand with K-high, your hand is very vulnerable. Since we have the betting lead this looks like a good spot to bet. It's possible that you'll even fold out pairs 22-44, but mostly if he calls he has a pair. You fold out a lot of high equity air like QT, 86, 34, as well as a lot of 6-out pair draws. You'll mostly be left against pairs and diamond draws.

Now let's look at the turn. Any T, J, Q, K is a good card for you on the turn. Consider his range after flat-calling preflop. Probably not a lot of TT-AA in it. Probably not a lot of aces. Mostly we expect pairs 22-99, suited connectors, and some broadway hands. After calling the flop he most likely has a pair like 66-88, 9x, 5x and sometimes 22-44 or a diamond draw. Most of the rest of his hands drop out. Usually you expect a raise from a set like 55 or 99, but we won't rule them out. Any T-K gives you either a pair or a straight draw. It is also an overcard to his hand almost always, unless he has something like T9-Q9. It also hits your range as preflop raiser harder than it does his as the caller. So this is a great card for you to bet!...if you were deeper. If you had 2000 behind instead of just 900 I would definitely want to bet this. You have a lot of equity against his pairs but they can't like seeing an overcard here. There is a good chance you can fold out his small pairs and/or diamond draws that don't also have extra outs. But if he check/raises you, you will be put in a gross spot where you're likely to make a mistake. If he check/raises you I'd lean toward a call. (With just gutshot? Well here's the thing...What hands are likely to check/raise? Sets and draws, T9, probably not a pair. You beat all his draws except KQ and it's really unlikely for him to have a set.) Anyhow, you probably don't want to have to call all in with K-high and a gutshot, so checking back is fine hoping to hit a K,Q, or J on the river. Or even to get to showdown with K-high against his diamond draws.

You river the nuts and he checks again. His hand looks pretty weak here, but it looks like he might have showdown value. Your best bet is to bet something fairly small that he feels he can call with a 5 or 44. And if he can't call there's a chance he tries to check/raise bluff, but that's not too common on the river. I don't know what he was expecting honestly when you checked back the turn. Was he really expecting you to bet missed diamonds on the river? If so then he should call, not raise. You're probably not betting a hand like 77 here, as you have too much showdown value. Obviously we call his shove since we have the nuts. But what if you had KQ instead and this only gives you a pair? Would you just check back second pair? I would take the same line you did with your KJ. I'd bet for value against his likely range of small pairs, 5x, and 9x. While he may drop his 22-44, and all his busted draws, I would expect a call from at least some of his likely 5x, 66, 77, 88, and 9x. And the check/raise? I'd still call! His line makes no sense. He doesn't have an ace, he doesn't check/call flop with KJ. He either has busted diamonds, T9 (though he'd probably just lead that) or some pair he's turning into a bluff since this Q smashes our range of the few hands he was beating with his small pairs. (This seems a little sophisticated but it appears he tried this), and we beat all those, so it's a call as well.

So all in all I think you played this hand very well. You could probably bet a little less preflop (I like 125) and a little less on the flop (about half-pot. It's a relatively dry ace-high board) and have about the same effects, saving you a few chips on a river brick.


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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 05:04 PM
(#7)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
Thank you
 

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