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PokerStars Player Representatives Report RAKE & VIP changes*OFFICIAL DISCUSSION*

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PokerStars Player Representatives Report RAKE & VIP changes*OFFICIAL DISCUSSION* - Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:00 PM
(#1)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
PokerStars Player Representatives Report

cliffs

● All changes will be implemented on February 1, 2012
● VPPs will continue to be awarded according to the weighted contributed system.
● Overall rake has been reduced by about 2% from the 2011 rates, which is giving more back to the players than the 1.5% loss in VIP rewards
● Supernova/SNE kept for 2013 as long as monthly VPP maintenance requirements are met in 2012 (this year only)
● Supernova/SNE lasts for 12 months instead of 9 when monthly requirements are met and the right to miss one extra month taken into account.
● Supernova monthly VPP maintenance requirement lowered to 6500 VPPs/month
● 3c-6c and 8c-16c NLHE levels will be added

New Rake Structure (USD)











Introduction


Stars announced changes on December 28th to be implemented on January 1st, 2012:

● VPPs allocated by the weighted contribution method instead of the dealt method
● Major rake changes involved decreased rake percentage and caps at many levels.
● Rake is taken at a true percentage instead of incremental.
● PokerStars canceled the rake changes pending the results of this meeting


Key Issues Raised

General
● Rake at the microstakes was high to the detriment of the whole poker economy because new players were “discouraged” by losing money too quickly
● Rake at some games made them almost impossible to beat: CAP games, Limit Hold’em and Micro/Low Stakes Big Bet
● Delays in communication of changes

Weighted Contributed Change
● Distribution of VPPs and FPPs shifted from SN+ to Platinum Star and below
● SN+ tiers are harder to achieve for many players
● Claims that PokerStars was increasing profits

Rake Changes
● Rake increase at some stakes
● Lead to claims that PokerStars was increasing profits

Solutions from Player Meeting

Rake Revenue
The change from dealt to weighted contributed rake gave PokerStars an increase in cash game revenue of about 1.5%.

PokerStars originally reduced rake to the extent that only 1% of the 1.5% revenue was returned to the players. They have now agreed to reduce rake by about 2%, resulting in a net revenue loss for PokerStars and net revenue gain to the players.

Rake changes occur in terms of either cap changes or rake % changes.

Rake Reductions
About 40% of the rake changes are associated with microstakes games. Every game at the microstakes has seen a rake reduction.

Rake Increases
● Rake at big bet games 25/50 and higher has increased
● This rake increase goes directly back into lower stakes games
● Rake at the high stakes games is very low in terms of bb/100 compared to lower stakes games
● PokerStars still offers competitive rake structures at these levels
● Associated costs with these games are much higher due to detecting collusion, fraudulent deposits, monitoring games, etc

Supernova/SNE Made Easier
● Returning SN/SNE players now can miss 2 of their monthly VPP retainers before they lose status
● Returning SN/SNE players will keep their status for 12 months instead of 9 months if they meet the retainers
● SNE requirement remains at 50,000 VPP/month and SN is reduced to 6,500 VPP/month

Supernova/SNE 2012-2013 Only Change
● Returning SN/SNE players now will retain their status going into 2013 if they accumulate a yearly VPP total equal to 10 retainer months
● For example, an SN earning 6,500 per month in each of 10 months would need 65,000 VPPs and an SNE earning 50,000 per month in each of 10 months would need 500,000 VPPs to keep their status throughout 2013
● To be clear, you must earn the 6500 or 50,000 in 10 different months
● This only applies this year and retaining status only includes the higher FPP multiplier (does not include milestone bonuses or tournament entries)

New Micro Levels
PokerStars has agreed to introduce two new stake levels for NL Hold’em of 3c/6c and 8c/16c. This will make it easier for players to move up/take shots at a higher level and should help to “unblock” the micro stakes. If these prove successful, new stake levels will be considered.

Fact Checking
PokerStars has agreed to revisit the rake figures later in the year, and if the actual rake differs significantly from the projected rake, then they may make further rake reductions.

Additional Issues
Communication


PokerStars has recognised that it made mistakes in communicating the latest changes.

● It has committed to providing as much notice as possible before making changes in the future
● It will invite player representatives to discuss issues with PokerStars, twice a year in April and November
● PokerStars reserves the right to make changes without prior consultation if business conditions necessitate. They intend this to be a rare thing.

VPP Multiplier
● Many players now have different VPP rates per hand than before. Data shows average losses at 14.3% for SNE and a 13.0% loss for SN.
● The total amount of VPPs remains the same, so VPPs reduced from higher tiers are entirely redistributed to lower tiers.
● PokerStars will not reduce the 6x VPP multiplier at full ring games. They recognise the inequality, but full ring games are a small portion of real money games. This should be considered a bonus for full ring and not a punishment for other games.
● 8c/16c will have a 6x VPP multiplier at 6max. 3c/6c will be determined.

PokerTableRatings (PTR)
PokerStars opposes the exposure of player information by PTR and will take whatever action it can to prevent this information from being publicly disclosed

Max Table Caps
We have been briefed about plans to cap the maximum number of tables. If you keep timing out and frustrating other players by acting more slowly than the average player, Stars will reduce the number of tables you are allowed to play. If you are playing 24 tables and acting much more quickly than the average player, you may get a max table increase.

General

We were given access to confidential information and data which we analyzed. We tried a number of sensitivity tests that make us confident that the changes listed above do mean PokerStars is putting extra money into the poker economy rather than removing money.

One final point: I think that this is a first in the poker industry, that major changes to product and pricing have been announced by the players and not by the company.



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Last edited by CannonLee; Sat Jan 28, 2012 at 01:03 PM..
 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:47 PM
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Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I love the fact that we have the two new micro levels. That will be a good boost for myself and i hope others trying to grind up in cash games.

Lots in information in that post CannonLee (which is great) so may take me a while to take it all in.

I noticed referances in the post to player representatives, how are these picked / who are they (ie do we as a PSO community have a representitive there pointing to posts in the forum?)

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:53 PM
(#3)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
BronzeStar
PokerTableRatings (PTR)
PokerStars opposes the exposure of player information by PTR and will take whatever action it can to prevent this information from being publicly disclosed

What does this mean?
 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 02:04 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
looks like they swiped this from 2p2 where stars have reps posting all the time
 
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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 02:45 PM
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CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
I love the fact that we have the two new micro levels. That will be a good boost for myself and i hope others trying to grind up in cash games.

Lots in information in that post CannonLee (which is great) so may take me a while to take it all in.

I noticed referances in the post to player representatives, how are these picked / who are they (ie do we as a PSO community have a representitive there pointing to posts in the forum?)

Grade b
I also am glad to hear that there is new levels added 3c-6c and 8c-16c at the NLHE microstakes!

There was a public poll on 2+2 poker forums about which player representatives will be selected to fly to the Isle of Man (PokerStars Head Quarters) for a meeting and negotiate "positive" changes to the current cash game rake structure and VIP Club.

Here is a list of the representatives in the 2+2 poker forums public poll:
Sect7G
xPeru
Klairic
krmont22
chisness
--UCLA Deity--

As for the PSO community there was no representatives that attended the meeting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
PokerTableRatings (PTR)
PokerStars opposes the exposure of player information by PTR and will take whatever action it can to prevent this information from being publicly disclosed

What does this mean?
The following types of tools and services are prohibited:
1. Any program that shares hole card data with other players or programs is colluding, and is prohibited.

2. Any program that works off of a central database of player profiles or hands played is prohibited.

3. Any program that plays without human intervention (a 'bot') or reduces the requirement of a human playing. For instance, an 'auto-folder' is prohibited.

4. The practice of datamining (observing games without playing in order to build up a database of hand histories for future reference) is prohibited.

5. Any software that offers direct game play advice on the appropriate action to take.

Poker Table Ratings is #55 on the list of prohibited tools and software.
source: Third Party Tools and Services FAQ



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Last edited by CannonLee; Sat Jan 28, 2012 at 02:54 PM..
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:55 PM
(#6)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Quote:
PokerTableRatings (PTR)
PokerStars opposes the exposure of player information by PTR and will take whatever action it can to prevent this information from being publicly disclosed
Is there anything that Pokerstars can actually do about this? Also, how exactly does PTR track all hand histories of hands played on Pokerstars?

Excited to hear about the new microstakes limits. If US players ever come back it will make moving up in the stakes so much better.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:11 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
The PTR issue cant be controlled,not sure why it would become a focus point when they admitted as much in the past and its a bit of dead issue,just like the use of huds.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:21 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
I must say I like these new levels as it should break down the grind.
Its a nice reward to move up with good bankroll management then getting bored and taking a shot.
Obviously I do the latter and need to play less and focus more,reason Im on a break.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 04:11 PM
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CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Is there anything that Pokerstars can actually do about this? Also, how exactly does PTR track all hand histories of hands played on Pokerstars?

Excited to hear about the new microstakes limits. If US players ever come back it will make moving up in the stakes so much better.
PokerStars is well aware of the challenges posed by PokerTableRatings.
It's an ongoing challenge, but despite this, we are going to keep fighting to combat PTR.

imo This could possibly be a solution for combating PTR, implement a 1 time screen name change for all the player base of PokerStars temporarily for 3months+ to eliminate all data mining from PTR as PokerStars takes the necessary actions to expunge PTR and all of it's components/database/methods of obtaining player stats etc.. might work but PTR is so complex...

PokerTableRatings uses a massive database of compiled player results to assess the quality of play at online poker tables.... and how they get the hand histories/stats is unknown

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
The PTR issue cant be controlled,not sure why it would become a focus point when they admitted as much in the past and its a bit of dead issue,just like the use of huds.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the solution that i mentioned in RockersGuys quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I must say I like these new levels as it should break down the grind.
Its a nice reward to move up with good bankroll management then getting bored and taking a shot.
Obviously I do the latter and need to play less and focus more,reason Im on a break.
I agree 100% But i would like to see those new levels at PLO8 as I'm an aficionado there



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Last edited by CannonLee; Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 11:16 PM..
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 04:12 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
they get them from stars/ FT banned them and stars talks the big game but they refuse to shut them out like tilt did
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:18 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
It was nice to see Stars consult the players like this.


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Check out my Videos

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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:56 PM
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PLaws62's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 329
there is a mention that no pso player representeives will be sent ,
Can i ask why there is no one representing pso and should there be more information made available about pso and its own players
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:10 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
mainly because all the people are supernova elites, not too many of them around here lol
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:14 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
@Cannon lee

I think the name change idea is more counter productive.
It will create suspicion with casual players thinking the regs still have a way to figure it out.
Other issue is people lose track of their friends and more players come here for social at the micros then people give credit.

PTR is owned by Zynga I believe and I dont see them going anywhere till say they start a poker site which I have heard rumors about for some time. Its will be interesting if Zynga does get into poker if they add their customers. If they dont it becomes a interesting dynamic...Whoa Im off course now.

I really dont know the answer,to be honest I would like to play at a site with out huds at any form of database collection for all to see. Would make poker more interesting,at least I would hope so.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:17 PM
(#15)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
the ptr answer is simple:

stars releases all data so any 3rd party software or sites become obsolete !!

if you can't control them ...............
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:22 PM
(#16)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
they get them from stars/ FT banned them and stars talks the big game but they refuse to shut them out like tilt did
^^the part highlighted in bold^^ ô¿ô elaborate please

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
It was nice to see Stars consult the players like this.
I am also glad too! Plus they will invite player representatives to discuss issues with PokerStars, twice a year in April and November, it's going to be interesting what will be discussed in future meetings/negotiations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLaws62 View Post
there is a mention that no pso player representeives will be sent ,
Can i ask why there is no one representing pso and should there be more information made available about pso and its own players
It would be safe to consider player negotiations ----> with PokerStars regarding their overall gross/net profit and bottom line for cash game rake is still in it's infant stage and quickly developing.


There will be future meetings twice a year in April and November between player reps and PokerStars to discuss issues/changes/solutions etc.. If ever there is a huge amount of concern in the near future within the PSO community about a certain change eg.rake/games/VIP/software etc.. open a thread in the relevant forum(PokerStars Support) and discuss "resolve, solutions, suggestions, ideas" with the community, if there is a lot of attention brought upon by members/posters to that particular "resolve, solutions, suggestions, ideas" thread PokerStars will greatly take all of it into consideration and evaluate it accordingly.

Plenty of information of PSO is out there. PSO is advertised on the Main Lobby of the PokerStars client and the home page of www.pokerstars.com I am sure the word has been passed around

Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
mainly because all the people are supernova elites, not too many of them around here lol
You do touch base with a valid point, but what is the population of 17 to be exact source fpppro They consist of a very small portion of the overall player base of PokerStars.

Please bear in mind that the negotiations that have just recently taken place about rake/VIP changes is only the beginning of a great outlet for players(not just 2+2 members) to capitalize on opinions for "resolve, solutions, suggestions, ideas" for PokerStars. There will be future meetings twice a year in April and November between player reps and PokerStars to discuss issues/changes/solutions etc..Most likely 2+2members will be the reps in them^^ But what happens when PSO grows in the following months/years and also other online communities?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
@Cannon lee

I think the name change idea is more counter productive.
It will create suspicion with casual players thinking the regs still have a way to figure it out.
Other issue is people lose track of their friends and more players come here for social at the micros then people give credit.

PTR is owned by Zynga I believe and I dont see them going anywhere till say they start a poker site which I have heard rumors about for some time. Its will be interesting if Zynga does get into poker if they add their customers. If they dont it becomes a interesting dynamic...Whoa Im off course now.

I really dont know the answer,to be honest I would like to play at a site with out huds at any form of database collection for all to see. Would make poker more interesting,at least I would hope so.
Yes the name change can be counter productive in terms of casual players suspicion, but it could certainly be part of the arsenal to combat PTR.

I had no idea about the PTR/Zynga. WOW!
Zynga is definitely going to be interesting if and when things pan out.

I'd also really like to see PTR and huds out of the picture.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Django66 View Post
the ptr answer is simple:

stars releases all data so any 3rd party software or sites become obsolete !!

if you can't control them ...............
Yes, sounds easy and simple... but there are so many other angles that need to be accounted for.



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Last edited by CannonLee; Mon Jan 30, 2012 at 02:25 PM..
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:38 PM
(#17)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
ok stars does not give them the HH, but they do not stop them from getting them. FT would disconnect you if you were idle for a certain amount of time http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...tings-1082219/ post 20 post 23 rebuts that argument but agree's that they got rid of them. Post 25 also claims tilt banned them etc just do a search there are many many posts about this
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:47 PM
(#18)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
ok stars does not give them the HH, but they do not stop them from getting them. FT would disconnect you if you were idle for a certain amount of time http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...tings-1082219/ post 20 post 23 rebuts that argument but agree's that they got rid of them. Post 25 also claims tilt banned them etc just do a search there are many many posts about this
Thanks for the link!



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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 07:19 PM
(#19)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
As I reread this I think that we all welcome the rake reduction at the lower levels.

At the same time for those members that relie of teh cash games to gain FPP's for trainings and the open league it is going to be harder with the way points are allocated. With this in mind will stars / pso re-look at the training limitations and lower them accordingly?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Wed Feb 01, 2012, 06:56 PM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I can't see the NL6 games - did they start today?


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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