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AKoff early in SnG

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AKoff early in SnG - Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:33 AM
(#1)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Hand 34 in 1 $1.50 27man SnG.

With the AK, I make a standard raise. I findf a caller, and then a minraise. I'm not inclined to flat call that hdere, and a raise is going to be for more than half my stack, so a shove is my action of choice. I think his call with the deuces is pretty horrible, but what about my shove with the AK?



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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:40 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Your reraise shove seems perfect. Nice line! In a 27 man tourney you need to gain some chips at some point and AK is too good to fold preflop in this situation. Calling seems to be spewing chips since you will probably end up in a multiway pot and have a tough choice on the flop. I tend to raise 4x from early position in mtts during the early levels to reduce the risk of getting a string of callers.

GL

Roland GTX
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:26 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Villain reads would help. You could make an argument for flatting and folding unimproved on the flop. It's a passive line, but I imagine it's profitable. Raising all-in is a good raise size if you believe that the villain is loose enough to get all-in with worse, or if you think he's minraise/folding a ton (almost never the case imo). Folding is also fine if the villain is tight. With the information provided, I really don't think we can pick the line that's likely to be best; the most we can do is talk about the merits of each one. Shoving's probably fine though.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:22 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi Ov3rsight!

Interesting spot here and I really think there are multiple ways to go about this hand.

I would definitely make the first standard raise with AK here. However, when the button min-raises after the hijack flats, I really think calling or raising here can work.

If I were to raise, I would want to make it between a pot raise and 3X the button's raise. But, this is going to be over 1/2 the chips that I have in front of me, so I definitely like shoving.

If I was to flat here, then I would be setting myself up to shove on the flop if I hit, or I could fold and still have 22+BB left, which is a very playable stack.

As to which I would do for this hand... it would really come down to my reads on both the hijack and the button players. If I thought that I could outplay the opps after the flop, then I'd be more likely to call, if the button had been playing loose, I'd be more tempted to shove.

As for the button calling a shove, if I was the button and put you on two broadway cards, then 22 is going to be in a race and the opp has a very playable stack left if they want to gamble and take a race this early in the tourney. I try to avoid races this early in a tourney, but I've seen many players that will get into a race early, especially if they have a larger stack of chips.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Take charge of the hand! - Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:07 PM
(#5)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Hand 34 in 1 $1.50 27man SnG.

With the AK, I make a standard raise. I findf a caller, and then a minraise. I'm not inclined to flat call that hdere, and a raise is going to be for more than half my stack, so a shove is my action of choice. I think his call with the deuces is pretty horrible, but what about my shove with the AK?
What I assume:
This looks like a 27 man MTT with 17 or 18 players left. The average stack size is somewhere between 2250 – 2400.

What we know:
No reads! We’re sitting on 25BB, and the pot already has 13BB’s. As it stands, our chip stack is half the size of the average; we need to increase it very soon. The blinds will be doubling up shortly (within an orbit usually); leaving us with 12BB’s and well below stack average.

Fold option:
I don’t really see this as an option. Even if the BTN is a NIT, we are short stacked (albeit, with a playable stack, for the moment), and in need to double up. There’s just too much dead money in the pot to pass on as well.

Call option:
I guess it’s better than folding. By just calling you’re inviting the limper to come along for the pot odds (no brainer). Whether the limper folds or calls, it will set up a SPR of under 2. You’re basically playing fit or fold getting 6:1 odds (not bad odds), but the limper hasn’t acted yet. If you take this line, I assume you ‘re folding if the limper shoves, if you’re not, then you need to shove first.

Shove option:
We have no reads on the villains. A min ‘click’ raise at this level, just means that the villain was too lazy too enter a keypad amount (I almost always use the keypad). You have a limper yet to act behind you. The dead money in the pot is 50% the value of your entire stack. You have a strong hand and need to double up because of your short stack (it’s later than you think!). By shoving, you may take down the pot right now, and increase your stack by 50% without a flop! You are putting a lot of pressure on the limper, which is getting pressured by two raises. Even if one or both villains call you, the risk/reward at this point of the tourney is well worth it!

Holding an AK has an additional advantage (less chance of AA or KK opposing you); combinatorically you are facing a flip at worse.

I’m shoving this hand, I need to double up, and this is a great opportunity. As an extra bonus… fold equity may bring home the bacon without a flop!
.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:40 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
Holding an AK has an additional advantage (less chance of AA or KK opposing you); combinatorically you are facing a flip at worse.
Not to debate the conclusion of the quoted post, but just to give some supplementary info, this statement is a bit misleading because it implies that we're never facing AA or KK. Combinatorically, we're only 50% less likely to be facing AA or KK, but the existence of AA or KK in a tight villain's range does make a big difference. Some players will only minraise here with AA or KK, and if this is that kind of player, then we're still facing KK+ 100% of the time even though we hold an A and a K. This is why reads are important here, and why they make a big difference in the analysis of the hand.

Hint @ OP: Include reads next time.
 
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Too good a hand - too much dead money - Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:29 PM
(#7)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 Holding an AK has an additional advantage (less chance of AA or KK opposing you); combinatorically you are facing a flip at worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to debate the conclusion of the quoted post, but just to give some supplementary info, this statement is a bit misleading because it implies that we're never facing AA or KK. Combinatorically, we're only 50% less likely to be facing AA or KK, but the existence of AA or KK in a tight villain's range does make a big difference. Some players will only minraise here with AA or KK, and if this is that kind of player, then we're still facing KK+ 100% of the time even though we hold an A and a K. This is why reads are important here, and why they make a big difference in the analysis of the hand.
Two quick points:

1) As far as, min-raises - it's the most common of raises found at lower levels - most players 'click back' a raise (it's the internet way - guess they are lazy - really they just don't know better).

2) All the forum goers know it's NOT impossible for AK to be up against AA or KK, and I really don't think that the statement misled them. Below I have a better worded statement, as well as a Poker Stove result against a reasonable 4% range of hands (NITty). If you fold AK every time a NIT raises (especially in this scenario), then hang up your card holder.

I would like to reword my previous statement for clarification, ‘combinatorically you are facing a flip at worse’, to ‘combinatorically CHANCES ARE you are facing a flip at worse’.

As a side note, I just Poker Stoved a 4% range (AQ+; JJ+), I think that is pretty NITty. Against this real tight range, we have 50% equity (a flip). With the pot containing 50% the value of my stack, my stack ½ the average stack size, and the blinds doubling within an orbit… I’m not folding, unless he turns his cards face up and shows me AA or KK.

Variety is the spice of life, that’s what makes poker so exciting.
.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:18 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I'm taking time out of my day to help out the people who post here, king_spadez. Please show some respect.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:56 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I'm taking time out of my day to help out the people who post here, king_spadez. Please show some respect.
Hilarious..I just dont follow how it got to this but funny any ways.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:02 PM
(#10)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
maybe we missed his joke again? lol
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:03 PM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
It's not conducive to a constructive debate when people start getting defensive. I don't need people taking an aggressive tone with me when I'm only trying to help. I also don't need people laughing at me. Seriously. This sort of crap is mostly why I stopped posting here six months ago.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:22 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
It's not conducive to a constructive debate when people start getting defensive. I don't need people taking an aggressive tone with me when I'm only trying to help. I also don't need people laughing at me. Seriously. This sort of crap is mostly why I stopped posting here six months ago.
Who is getting defensive lol... You need to relax your comment says more about you then any one that posted. Your wound way to tight and I suggest you stay away from 2p2 if you cant handle people disagreeing with you.

Im done though,just shocked you went that route,sorry for the derail op.
 
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No disrespect intended - Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:38 PM
(#13)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I'm taking time out of my day to help out the people who post here, king_spadez. Please show some respect.
Sorry if you took any part of my last post as disrespectful.

If you took offense to my statement of 'hanging up your card holder'... that wasn't directed at you, but to anyone that plays so tight in this particular situation, to fold their cards; just my opinion.

I take this time to recant those ill used words, which were meant as playful banter (not hurtful daggers).

Ah, I see we brought a touch of sunlight, to IseeCookies evening. It seems even some good can be found in the darkness of night.

Cheer up all – may the cards be with you!
.
 
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Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:46 PM
(#14)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
and panicky had a good day today too..

Spadez, nice post way to take the high road, I know I wouldnt lol

Actually thought both of you brought up good points, lively debate is always good
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 04:11 AM
(#15)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
And getting back to the hand...

Ove3sight, these 27 man tourneys are regular speed aren't they? I ask because JWK24s response that calling then folding the flop is a viable option surprized me. He is an expert (and I suck), so I take what he says seriously. However, our satisfaction with a "22+ bb stack" is going to evaporate as soon as the blinds increase. In the turbos, the blinds increase fast. At 50/100 we only have 11+ bb which is push/fold range. If we had AK at that point we would have a clear shove.

If this were a single table sng, the call/fold line seems to have more merit as it is easier to survive with a smaller stack. But this is a three table sng. We can't fold our way itm, we need to acquire chips. So, unless we "know" that the minraiser only minraises with KK+, then we want to play this hand. Which way is the better approach:
A) flatting the minraise and most likely getting a 3 way flop. The value of our hand drops significantly and we will have a tough time reading the board.
B) Reraising all in preflop. We are showing plenty of strength and we have enough chips to give us good fold equity. If we are lucky, both opponents fold. If not, we hopefully only get one caller, extra chips in the pot from whoever folded and a hand that will play well against everything except AA. Worst case, we get a 3 way showdown, but we will have a nice stack at least if we win it.

Yes, it sucks busting early, but if we are not shoving in this situation what are we waiting for?

JWK24, am I way off base here? Could you please explain again how calling the minraise is a decent option.

Thanks!
Roland GTX
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 12:38 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
As a side note, I just Poker Stoved a 4% range (AQ+; JJ+), I think that is pretty NITty.
I would suggest this is an inaccurate range assignment. I believe a tight/nitty player who has AQo in their range will also have at least TT and 99 if not more pocket pairs, not just JJ+ for pocket pairs.

If you take a 4% range of 99+, AK (3.9% range), AKo is a 59/41 dog to this range. If you add AQs to that (4.2% range) AKo is a 57/43 dog,


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Range assessment can vary - agreed - Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:10 PM
(#17)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I would suggest this is an inaccurate range assignment. I believe a tight/nitty player who has AQo in their range will also have at least TT and 99 if not more pocket pairs, not just JJ+ for pocket pairs.

If you take a 4% range of 99+, AK (3.9% range), AKo is a 59/41 dog to this range. If you add AQs to that (4.2% range) AKo is a 57/43 dog,
Point taken - ranges may be different.

Would you agree, if you open the range up to 99+, it's possible BTN includes AQo in their range? I'll tighten up my assignment to make my villain NITtier. Below shows both, original and revised assignments. I tend to agree, that the revised assignments are more acurate.

Range 1:
a) My (revised) assignment (AQo taken out) (hero 57/43 dog)
b) Your assignment (without AQo) (hero 57/43 dog)

Range 2:
a) My original assignment (including the AQo) (hero 50/50)
b) Your (revised) assignment (including AQo) (hero 51/49 dog)

In the given post, we are far from the bubble - what would be the best line to take with the ranges below?

Range 1, Question:
With the blinds doubling within an orbit which will render our stack to a push/fold game, and the pot is 1/2 as much as our stack ... what line would you take, being a 57/43 dog?

Range 2, Question:
With the blinds doubling within an orbit which will render our stack to a push/fold game, and the pot is 1/2 as much as our stack ... what line would you take, being a 51/49 dog?
.
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:39 PM
(#18)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hi Roland!

If it was a turbo instead of a 10 min level, then I would absolutely be more inclined to shove than to call preflop. 22BB with the std levels gives a good bit of time to be able to find a hand in a better situation to double up.

Early in either the 27, 45 or 90 man tourneys, I try not to go all in without some sort of made hand and AK is still only ace high. From the ones that I've played over the years, sometimes a situation like this will be the best shot I've got to gain chips, but in the large majority of them, I've found better situations where I can be all-in with a made hand, especially when I'm in position and heads up.

When I've hit many of my variance runs in them, after reviewing some of the hand histories, a number of them were from pushing too often, too early without made hands (AK or AQs)... so they were bad runs that I caused myself by doing this.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:53 PM
(#19)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
b) Your (revised) assignment (including AQo) (hero 51/49 dog)
This isn't my revised range, it's over 5%, I simply was adjusting the 4% # to be more reasonable than AQo+ and JJ+ since anyone with AQo is surely going to have lower pairs than JJ too (and not it's not 4% any more)

Looking over the hand now, I'm not sure where this 4% even came into the thread, the villain min-raised/called off with 22, clearly they are much wider than 4%.

I don't think I'm raise/folding AK in this situation ever, and I also don't think flat calling and playing out of position without the initiative is attractive with blinds doubling shortly. Stop and go is out of the question, our stack size is too awkward for that and there's a 3rd player involved who will almost surely over call pre if we flat (stop and go is much better HU anyway, and with somewhere in the neighborhood of a pot sized bet left ideally, not the size of the pot). So that leaves me with shipping it. I think we do have some fold equity, and we will often at least get the 3rd party out of the way which increases our equity and leaves his dead money out there. And vs. a villain who makes lots of mistakes (as the play of this hand illustrates imo) AK will play well enough against their get it in range.

All in.


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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:31 PM
(#20)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Roland!

If it was a turbo instead of a 10 min level, then I would absolutely be more inclined to shove than to call preflop. 22BB with the std levels gives a good bit of time to be able to find a hand in a better situation to double up.

Early in either the 27, 45 or 90 man tourneys, I try not to go all in without some sort of made hand and AK is still only ace high. From the ones that I've played over the years, sometimes a situation like this will be the best shot I've got to gain chips, but in the large majority of them, I've found better situations where I can be all-in with a made hand, especially when I'm in position and heads up.

When I've hit many of my variance runs in them, after reviewing some of the hand histories, a number of them were from pushing too often, too early without made hands (AK or AQs)... so they were bad runs that I caused myself by doing this.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I am pretty sure I fall into push/fold modus a bit too quickly. I need to work on my post flop play...

Thanks again!

Roland GTX
 

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