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5nl 6max Ako- post flop What Now?

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5nl 6max Ako- post flop What Now? - Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:57 AM
(#1)
Nashy1996's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 164
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner







Just wanted peoples thoughts on a hand like this where you get action preflop you 4bet they call then you get no help on the flop,where to from there?
i hadn't been at this table very long,i'd played about 20-30 hands with my opponent and he had stats of vpip15 pr15 but you cant give that too much weight after such a small sample.
obviously if i hit top pair here i'm prepared to get it in with a low SPR but i couldn't pull the trigger with ace high.
Another option i could consider here is just 4bet shoving preflop,i think on a video of xflixx's i watched once he made a similar move, that either takes it right there or takes out the awkard spot i was in post flop.but i felt maybe my opponent was a bit deep, but i don't know if that matters i dont recall exactly the stack sizes in felix's video.

Thanks everyone would love your thoughts
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 07:21 AM
(#2)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
um this might just raise another question instead of providing any help, but let's say if you're comfortable to get it all in if you hit top pair on the flop wouldn't it be correct to call that bet on the flop just in hopes of spiking a king or an ace? I might be calculating my pot odds wrong though. His hand sort of smells like QQ or AK, unless he just calls your 4-bet with AA or KK. Eh like I said it's just my 2 cents. I sort of find myself in situations like this a lot too so I'm very interested in what more experienced players have to say about this.
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 11:20 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Nashy,

When I 4b pre like this and am HU, I am generally going to c-bet this flop all the time. Much of the time I'll have a big pair here, and would be c-betting those for sure, so c-bet your misses too. You put a lot of pressure on the opponent to fold small pairs and misses alike, or be praying you have AK for a lot of chips. If you bet the $1.65 on the flop I think you'd find you get a lot of folds. If they continue and you don't improve on the turn, then you can slow down/give up as they're probably not folding a smaller pair to a turn shove. (Which is ok, they won't fold it the next time either when you have KK instead of AK).

When you check the AK here it turns your hand face up, he could be betting JTs or AQ or 99 or whatever here just using his positional advantage and the read you have AK. If you are taking this line then you should also sometimes be checking QQ+ here as well for some balance, so they can't just put you on AK in these spots. That being said, you will usually have QQ+ in these spots and be c-betting them, so for balance I prefer the route above to just c-betting AK as well.

Regarding 4b shoving pre, I'm not a big fan of that here. His 3b is to 14bb's, and you're over 100 deep, so I think it's too much. It's ok against bad players but it's a thin edge, you can probably get more edge playing flops with bad players. Vs. good players, well when I see this line in my games the villain almost always has AK, so that allows me to play my hand perfectly then, folding worse hands and getting it in with better.

Hope this helps,
Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 12:16 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashy1996 View Post
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner







Just wanted peoples thoughts on a hand like this where you get action preflop you 4bet they call then you get no help on the flop,where to from there?
i hadn't been at this table very long,i'd played about 20-30 hands with my opponent and he had stats of vpip15 pr15 but you cant give that too much weight after such a small sample.
obviously if i hit top pair here i'm prepared to get it in with a low SPR but i couldn't pull the trigger with ace high.
Another option i could consider here is just 4bet shoving preflop,i think on a video of xflixx's i watched once he made a similar move, that either takes it right there or takes out the awkard spot i was in post flop.but i felt maybe my opponent was a bit deep, but i don't know if that matters i dont recall exactly the stack sizes in felix's video.

Thanks everyone would love your thoughts
Hi Nashy1996!

In this spot, on these stack sizes, I do not think I like the 4bet by you versus a reasonably tight opp. I think I'd really prefer to flat and play "fit or fold".

You have to consider that a VPiP of 15% pre is not really what his range is going to be in this spot. Since the villain 3bet, not open raised, he is probably no wider than at least the top half of his range (7.5%), and since there was a raise and a call in front of him, he really is probably on a 5% 3bet range or tighter. Versus a 5% 3bet range, you are actually on 46.5% equity and a bit of a dog (versus a small 53.5% fav over a 7.5% 3bet range).

Also...

You are oop with a hand that will tend to miss the flop quite often (about 2/3rds the time). Those misses put you in a tricky spot regarding whether to C-Bet or not on this depth of money if you 4bet pre for less than all in. You also must know that if you do NOT C-Bet after 4betting, someone who 3bets pre is almost certain to do so in a pot this size if you check. You are going to be really hard pressed to call that bet (if you check a miss), and a lead bet by you of around half pot is going to get called a LOT simply because the pot has grown. A shove is going to be really tough too if you've missed, so all in all, this is not a good spot to find yourself on around 2/3rds of flops in my opinion.

I also must say that I do agree with your recollection of xflixx's video that there ARE benefits to 4bet shoving here (if you are going to 4bet at all), but I'm not positive those benefits out weigh the risks on this depth of money:

- It sets you up for at least a RACE with everything except AA/KK, with the money in the pot already to cover that race. You are going to have max chance to hit top/top by seeing all 5.

- It guarentees you do not have a tricky decision oop the 2/3rds of the times you miss the flop.

- It guarentees you get max value from hands like KK/QQ/JJ on some board textures when you hit the flop for top/top. These hands may not pay you off after you 4bet and an A or K flops.

The only real concern I'd have about shoving this deep on a 4bet is if I thought I'd "value own" myself (only fold out worse and get called by better); It strikes me that this is not necessarily the case here though. A "reasonable" 5% 3bet range will contain these hands:

PP 99+, AJs+, AKo, KQs.

A 4bet all in is probably folding out AJs/AQs/KQs/99/TT and maybe even JJ if the villain is reasonably aware. While we are folding out a lot of WORSE hands from the range, we are likely folding out a couple bottom end "better" hands too without having to fade a race. A 15% to 20% chip up without racing is certainly an ok win.

We are not in great shape versus a likely CALL range of our 4bet all in (~39.8% equity for us if we get called) though.

With the money in the pot from the previous actions, you are getting only about 1.2 to 1 on a shove if the villain calls, and that is not quite enough to off-set your equity dis-advantage. Still, we are likely to get called only about half the time here if the villain is aware...

So being this deep does matter if you are contemplating a shove; it is probably not as good as flatting pre instead of 4betting oop in my opinion. If we were just a bit shallower here, we'd have the overlay in the pot already to make a pre flop 4bet jam break even, or small +eV even if called.

Once you have 4bet though, I do agree with what Dave says; C-Betting your misses 100% of the time returns the pressure almost as effectively to the Villain's range as an immediate all in, but with the added benefit that your stack is not in the middle when the villain calls your C-Bet (or jams) your misses. Pretty much all the same hands as you'd fold out with a pre-flop jam are still folding on many all rag flops too.

That makes a decision to C-Bet about as "simple" as an immediate all in, because if you have missed you can easily "give up" and save some money even if the villain only flats, and you do not improve.

But I still think i'd prefer a flat of the 3bet when oop, to play fit or fold, since this costs me far less than the 4bet pre line when the flop misses me; which it will do a LOT.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Mon Jan 30, 2012 at 02:45 PM..
 
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 01:30 AM
(#5)
Nashy1996's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 164
Thanks guys for your analysis,all your points are really really helpful
I agree Dave that once i 4bet there i need to be c-betting for balance on that board, to be giving the action i did pre-flop i should be continuing when i get a board texture a probably want most of the time(at least when i hit air)
And Jdean i really love your thoughts i have alot to go on and think about from your post,also i like your flat call of the 3bet preflop line oop and pretty deep.thanks for talking through all the options, 4bet shoving pre and my flop actions.

thanks guys your feedbacks awesome
 

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