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45ppl sng ak v a6

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45ppl sng ak v a6 - Mon Jan 30, 2012, 06:16 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
HI ALL +EV PLAY
keep getting busted using ev + play on final table ,help please

PokerStars Hand #74726628062: Tournament #508695442, $0.23+$0.02 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (400/800) - 2012/01/30 11:05:20 UTC [2012/01/30 6:05:20 ET]Table '508695442 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the buttonSeat 1:
redtubemaste (5961 in chips)
Seat 2: s3rvic3s (10306 in chips)
Seat 3: alinenache (9373 in chips)
Seat 5: moskiewka (11482 in chips)
Seat 6: Antonious770 (1356 in chips)
Seat 7: holdemace486 (4576 in chips)
Seat 8: Aksarin (15855 in chips)
Seat 9: sparkykhv (8591 in chips)
redtubemaste: posts the ante 50
s3rvic3s: posts the ante 50
alinenache: posts the ante 50
moskiewka: posts the ante 50
Antonious770: posts the ante 50
holdemace486: posts the ante 50
Aksarin: posts the ante 50
sparkykhv: posts the ante 50
holdemace486: posts small blind 400
Aksarin: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to holdemace486 [Kc Ah]
sparkykhv: folds
redtubemaste: folds
s3rvic3s: folds
alinenache: folds
moskiewka: folds
Antonious770: folds
holdemace486: raises 3726 to 4526 and is all-in
Aksarin: calls 3726
*** FLOP ***
[4s Qh 2s]
*** TURN *** [
4s Qh 2s] [6h]
*** RIVER ***
[4s Qh 2s 6h] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN **
*holdemace486: shows [Kc Ah] (high card Ace)
Aksarin: shows [6c As] (a pair of Sixes)A
ksarin collected 9452 from pot
holdemace486 finished the tournament in 8th place

*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 9452 | Rake 0 Board [4s Qh 2s 6h 7h]Seat 1: redtubemaste folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: s3rvic3s folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: alinenache folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: moskiewka folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: Antonious770 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: holdemace486 (small blind) showed [Kc Ah] and lost with high card AceSeat 8: Aksarin (big blind) showed [6c As] and won (9452) with a pair of SixesSeat 9: sparkykhv folded before Flop (didn't bet)

standard table,all players left playing tight,i was going to fold preflop and let the low stack bubble,but ak on the sb i got shove havent i?
 
Old
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 06:48 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Tough spot! I think I'm grudgingly folding here.

PROs: You have a premium starting hand, it's folded around to you and need to double up asap
CONs: The chipleader, the one guy who can call your shove, is in the bb.

This seems to be an +ev spot, but ICM probably indicates folding.

If this is a regular speed folding seems better in this spot because of the huge stack of the chipleader and the short stack getting the bb before you. In other words, you can presumable fold your way itm. If this is a turbo, shoving seems best because you cannot afford to pass up such an ev+ spot. Furthermore, if one of the medium stacks were in the bb rather than the chipleader, shoving pretty much atc looks good.

PS: If this were larger than a 45 man, shoving seems better since the top places are more important than a mincash.

GL

Roland GTX
 
Old
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 08:08 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
cheers roland but like someone else as said how you supose to win the things if you dont shove you good hands?
 
Old
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 08:21 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Yes, those words do sound familiar - LOL!

I'm not sure if it's correct, but I treat bubble play in regular speed 45 man or smaller tourneys as I do the bubble in single table tourneys. In other words, ICM is important. Stack sizes are important. And both take precedence over your starting hand. Sometimes this allows you to shove atc, other times it means folding KK. In this particular situation you have to deal with the chipleader acting after you and a micro stack at the table.

Let's hear what the experts have to say. I might be way off base

Roland GTX
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 08:44 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
Yes, those words do sound familiar - LOL!

I'm not sure if it's correct, but I treat bubble play in regular speed 45 man or smaller tourneys as I do the bubble in single table tourneys. In other words, ICM is important. Stack sizes are important. And both take precedence over your starting hand. Sometimes this allows you to shove atc, other times it means folding KK. In this particular situation you have to deal with the chipleader acting after you and a micro stack at the table.

Let's hear what the experts have to say. I might be way off base

Roland GTX
i think you are right personally because every time i use my equity i lose lol and normally bubble etc,so yes want to know what the experts are saying myself thx m8t
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 08:50 AM
(#6)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
I make that shove 100% of the time, just unlucky result
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 01:31 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi ace,

You only have a 5bb stack, the villain has 20bb's and 1 already in so he's calling 4 more. Many players on a 5bb stack would be shoving a fairly wide range, and if I were in the villains shoes and perceived that you were, I 'd call with ace high too getting better than 1.6 to 1 on my money. If I knew you were shoving only a very tight range I would fold it in his shoes.

Personally I would shove AK all the time in this spot. I doubt ICM says you should open fold it here but since Roland says it might, I'll ask you Roland to run it through ICM for us and see.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

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Old
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 01:35 PM
(#8)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi ace,

You only have a 5bb stack, the villain has 20bb's and 1 already in so he's calling 4 more. Many players on a 5bb stack would be shoving a fairly wide range, and if I were in the villains shoes and perceived that you were, I 'd call with ace high too getting better than 1.6 to 1 on my money. If I knew you were shoving only a very tight range I would fold it in his shoes.

Personally I would shove AK all the time in this spot. I doubt ICM says you should open fold it here but since Roland says it might, I'll ask you Roland to run it through ICM for us and see.

Dave
You are making me work here Dave - lol! Let me get out my calculator. And give me a some time to do the math the old fashioned way
 
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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:54 PM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Well, I did the math assuming that the bb will call our shove 33% of the time. If we fold our equity is $4.20. If we shove, our equity is $4.54.

Not surprizingly, TheLangolier was absolutely correct

Thanks for setting me staight. Learning by doing (the math that is...)

Roland GTX

PS This exercise made me want to buy Sng Wizard since it will do the icm calculations for you
 
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Shoving on the bubble - Mon Jan 30, 2012, 08:01 PM
(#10)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
HI ALL +EV PLAY
keep getting busted using ev + play on final table ,help please

standard table,all players left playing tight,i was going to fold preflop and let the low stack bubble,but ak on the sb i got shove havent i?
45 man MTT - bubble - top 7 get paid - lion’s share to the top 3 places

NITting in:
You can conceivably fold into the money within 7 hands (only set you back 350 in antes); short stack will need to commit during that span; even if he doubles up you can still try to wait him out (at the cost of probably only min-cashing). He’ll need to triple up or parlay, to put the pressure back on you. At this point you’re still not guaranteed a spot ITM.

Taking a stab:
If you do get ITM, you are winning less than 2 times your buy-in (4% of the pool which = .8:1). If your shove is called and you win, you have a shot at 4th place (8% which is double 7th place), and possibly higher. You still have some fold equity (for the reasons below); and you may take down 1600 chips, without a flop.

Fold equity:
If hero shoves, the big stack may actually give hero more credit than you think because… hero is on the bubble; hero can most likely fold to the money; hero has been playing tight (you said the entire table was tight); and hero is attacking the big stack. If hero shoves, the dead money in the pot will be ½ of what the villain needs to invest to call (needing 40% equity). Villain may decide to take a chance (he will share chip lead if he loses), but he’s not doing it with ATC.

I’m shoving!
.
 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:22 AM
(#11)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
no need to do the math

AK just shove it

you lost

no need to think about the lost

register the next game, it's so easy
 

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