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You choose the ACTION! (the lead in)

View Poll Results: Which game choice do we make? Why?
Immediately take a seat in the $3/$6 game and wait for a $1/$2 seat to open; I want ACTION! 1 7.14%
Immediately sit at the $2/$5 open seat offered by Sophie. 5 35.71%
Grab a Card Player magazine, and wait patiently for a $1/$2 must move seat to open. 6 42.86%
Leave the card room and come back a bit earlier next week so we do not have to wait. 0 0%
BLANK 2 14.29%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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You choose the ACTION! (the lead in) - Tue Jan 31, 2012, 03:26 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi all.

I was thinking about some ways we could generate some discussion in the NLHE cash game section, so I'm going to put up a poll for everyone to pick the course of action in a hand I will create.

This will be the same idea as the old "duplicate poker" threads we ran in the hand analysis forums before things were divided, but instead these will focus on cash game concepts.

For those who never saw those old threads, the concept is simple:

- I will create a mythical "table", complete with all the reads you have on your opponents.

- We will then receive our hand, and see a pattern of action.

- I will post a poll for people to vote on what they think we SHOULD do in this spot.

- If you vote on the poll, please put up a post to explain why you've chosen your action so we can all discuss those reasons.

- After a 2 day period, we will take the majority's decision as our action, and move on to our next decision.

Every "action" option in the poll will have a pre-created REACTION from our table, and we will have a new set of options for each decision on every street. Obviously, being NLHE, bet sizing is quite wide open, so we will not distinguish between a bet of 100 chips, and 102 chips, as these would really be the same bet in the eyes of most opponents.

I think people really enjoyed this when we did it for MTT play, and it can be as fun for cash game thoughts too!

So without further delay...your table reads:

It is a cold and rainy saturday evening in late January as you walk out to your car for your regular visit to the local card room. 6 Fat purple chips make a satifying clack in your pocket as you start your drive (purple = $500 chips).

The 30 minute drive is not pleasant, with slick roads and a couple of idiot drivers, and to top it off, when you filled up your tank you see that gas prices have gone up AGAIN. Still, you look forward to these trips to the Casino, as they have been quite profitable for you lately. Things could definately be worse, and you wonder if maybe tonight is the night you step up in game level.

You were a bit of a fish when you first started out 2 years ago, but then you found PSO and your game really started to improve. That improvement means that over the last year you have gone from a small long term net loser, to a pretty decent favorite in your chosen game: $1/$2 NLHE, $200 max capped BI. You know you have an advantage on most of the Regs, and the drop in's that show up in the game usually do not pose much of a threat to your profitability.

You have been banging the game pretty hard for a year at this little 8 table venue on friday and saturday nights, and you've seen your BR grow from $2,000 (10 BI), up to $12k (60 BI); and that was after you spent $3k to take your boyfriend/girlfriend on a weekend trip to Cancun.

The hassles of the drive begin to fade as the "energy" of the casino seeps in on your walk through the parking garage, towards the poker room. There is a little pep in your step, and a smile crosses your face; you just know you are in line for another good session. You also are completely aware that even if things do not go well in the short term tonight, your skill edge is not going to disappear any time soon, so you will come back and get 'em next week if you drop a bit of coin. This gives you a quiet sort of confidence that does not need to be expressed in bragging, and your smile gets just a little bit bigger.

On the elevator, you see 2 $1/$2 regs, both total donks and big time losing players. You barely over hear one whisper to the other, "Of course he/she is smiling, he/she is the luckiest player in the state/province/county!" That just make you grin even more and think to yourself, "if they only knew..."

As you enter the card room, you take a quick look at your watch and see it is 4:00 pm. You see that the 8 tables are all pretty occupied, and there is a list for some games. The games spread are:

2 Tables of $2/$5 NLHE (with a $500 max cap buy in). 1 full ring, and 1 seat open.

2 "feeder" tables at $200 max cap $1/$2 NLHE for a "must move" game. 1 seat opens as you walk in.
(In a "must move" game, as each seat opens in the main game, someone at a feeder table "must move" to that spot. The person who moves is usually the person who has been seated in the feeder table the longest.)

2 "main game" tables at the $200 max cap $1/$2 NLHE game. No seats open.

2 Table of $3/$6 FLHE with a kill. 2 seats at 1 table, and 3 at the other.
(anyone who wins 2 pots in a row must post a double big blind from any position, and the limits increase to $6/$12 for that hand.)

These $3/$6 tables are winding down a bit as the Senior Citizen morning nits start to go home for their geritol and early bed times (no offense if you fit the age category, as you probably do not fit the profile! ), and you know that usually around 8 or 9pm, the Poker room busts up at least one of the $3/$6 tables and creates another feeder table for the $1/$2 main game. The last 2 weeks running though, both $3/$6 games have busted and became feeder tables for the $1/$2.

You walk up to the podium at the front, and say to Sophie (the cute french brush person), "Hiya Sophie, whatcha got for me tonight?"

"'Allo _____, so good to zee you again! I can sit you at a $3/$6 right now if you want, or a $1/$2 seat should open in about 15 ou 20 minutes. I also have zee $2/$5 open eff you want?"

"Thanks! Just a sec Soph, lemme take a quick look around. You look hot in that dress (or if you are a lady, "I love that dress!")," you say, and move over to see the $2/$5 game with a seat.

That table has 3 guys you played some $1/$2 against a while back, and 2 of them are pretty good if you remember; 1 had about $800 in front of him, and the other has about $600. The other person you recognize as a Dentist with a big mouth and very little skill, who was a pretty weak ABC player, but very prone to tilt off a couple of BI per session if he took a beat or 2. He has about $1000 in front of him, and is loudly and boisteriously proclaiming his acumen as he rakes in a $250 pot (stack up to $1250 now).

You do not really recognize anyone else at the table, but you see they have stacks of:

Seat 1: Dentist, $1250
Seat 2: Reg 1, $800
Seat 3: Unknown middle 50's well dressed man, $400.
Seat 4: Reg 2, $600
Seat 5: Unknown mid 20's woman, $525.
Seat 6: Unknown kid who seems a bit frustrated, $225.
Seat 7: Unknown Grandmother type, $375
Seat 8: Unknown mid 30's/early 40's guy, $475, but as you stand there, you see him pull a green chip from his stack and top up to $500.
Seat 9: OPEN.

You then wander over to glance at the $1/$2 main games and all have the typical cast of characters...

The first main game table has an average stack of around $600, with 1 extremely short stack, and the largest stack around $1000. The big stack is held by a guy you know is a solid player, if a bit ABC, and the shortest stack of $125 is held by a donk who never lets himself get stuck more than 2 BI; he will probably leave soon, unless he has his "extra" BI still in hand. The rest of the stacks seem to range between $500 and $700, and are all held by unknowns.

The second main game table is a little strange to you, as you recognize no one. As you watch though, there seem to be 3 guys who are drinking and tossing chips around, and hooting and hollering it up. One of those guys is up to maybe $800, one of them just stacked off to his buddy and re-bought for $200, and the other is sitting on around $500. The rest of the table is also joining in the joking and hilarity, and there is a very light hearted vibe at the table. The other stacks range between around $300, and $500.

If we sit at a feeder table for the $1/$2, we have roughly an equal chance to wind up at either of these main game tables.

Now...

I know this is a lotta info, and none of it strictly relates to the play of HANDS. We will get to that in the next post though, I promise. I will create a situation where you have chosen your table, and have been sitting for around half an hour or so (just enough to get some info), and we will move form there.

I started off with this stuff though, because game selection is such a HUGE component of your overall profit potential. I think the choices we face here are pretty typical for live play, and a discussion about what we should choose at this important decision will go a long way toward what we might make in our fictional cash game "session".

So the choices are as follows:

1) Immediately take a seat in the $3/$6 game and wait for a $1/$2 seat to open; I want to get in ACTION!!!!

(we will not cover any hands at the $3/$6 if this is the majority choice)

2) Immediately sit at the $2/$5 open seat offered by Sophie.

3) Grab a Card Player magazine, and wait patiently for a $1/$2 must move seat to open.

4) Leave the card room and come back a bit earlier next week so we do not have to wait.

5) BLANK (I am including a blank option so I can click it myself and view results, without casting a ballot. Please do not use your choice on this. Thank you.)

When you cast your votes, please remember to include a post as to WHY you voted as you did. I think following ALL our decisions in a cash game session with a good discussion can really help us all!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Tue Jan 31, 2012 at 04:29 PM..
 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 06:38 PM
(#2)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi JDean

I picked Grab the magazine and wait option. $3/6 seems too high and with the tables breaking up anyway a short handed game is not how we got our stack. $2/5 seems tempting with the fact we know some of the players there, but again that's not the game I came ready and prepared for. So we know 3 players but that leaves 5 its only going to take one of them to be a shark/get lucky to really knock our Bankroll in a short time.

So i opt to wait for the game I'm used to and doing well at, yes unknown faces at the tables but its better for me to adapt to them if I'm playing the game I'm used to.

This is a great Idea JDean. I can't wait to see how others are thinking about this too.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 06:41 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi JDean

I picked Grab the magazine and wait option. $3/6 seems too high and with the tables breaking up anyway a short handed game is not how we got our stack. $2/5 seems tempting with the fact we know some of the players there, but again that's not the game I came ready and prepared for. So we know 3 players but that leaves 5 its only going to take one of them to be a shark/get lucky to really knock our Bankroll in a short time.

So i opt to wait for the game I'm used to and doing well at, yes unknown faces at the tables but its better for me to adapt to them if I'm playing the game I'm used to.

This is a great Idea JDean. I can't wait to see how others are thinking about this too.


Grade b
the 3/6 is a fixed limit game Grade B.

in the scenario though, (and since this is a NLHE cash game forum), we are normally NLHE players.

And also, we do have $3k in our pocket.



Double Bracelet Winner
 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 07:20 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I'm picking to go to the 3/6 limit table but wouldn't put my name on the 1/2 NL list. I'm just going to start playing 1/2NL in a casino later this year, but have been playing 3/6 kill for a bit in a couple casinos, so it's a comfortable game for me and fits my bankroll better in real life. Also, since I'm more comfortable at the 3/6 kill game, I would hope that I could add to my bankroll when the seat at the 1/2NL game opened... IF.. I decided to then jump into that game when the 3/6 table broke up.

However, for the scenario here, I would not want to go straight to 2/5NL, because if I had planned on playing 1/2 NL later that evening, I wouldn't want to be dropping down a level if I was winning... as I wouldn't be able to get the action that I would want by doing so... which could work against me.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 08:00 PM
(#5)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
a lot of info,

at first glance i think i'd play 2/5 to get the money of the well rolled dentist and the rest of the table also looks soft enough, i can always move to the 1/2 later.
 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 08:02 PM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
opps my bad. That said as 1/2 NL is my game i'd rather not play the 3/6 fixed version.

So i stick with my decision.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:04 PM
(#7)
Austerror's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 85
I chose to grab a magazine and wait but id like to offer a slight variation, instead of actually reading the magazine id stay close to the 1/2 tables and see if i could pick up anything from my opponents before i sat down.
 
Old
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Wed Feb 01, 2012, 01:47 PM
(#8)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Hi! JDean, it sounds interesting so thanks for starting this up.

I would go for option 3 and wait for $1/$2 NLHE as I would have edge against most of the regs and even the drop ins usually don't pose any threat. As we have a 50/50 chance of ending up at either of the two main games at this level so if we end up on the second main game that would be sweet. The most the players on that table seems to be having fun rather than playing serious poker and some guys are even drinking so this could be a nice opportunity to boost our bankroll.

Cheers.
 
Old
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Wed Feb 01, 2012, 01:53 PM
(#9)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
if i'm thinkin' of uppin' my stakes, i'm gonna hit the 2/5 game now. i can probably gain relative position on the main table target. and i think this looks like a decent table to give that a go
 
Old
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Wed Feb 01, 2012, 02:25 PM
(#10)
outcast13's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 122
Hi JDean good post.

I pick # 5

If i going to play poker in $1/$2 NL table i wouldn't grab magazine because i would missed out lot informations what going on at that table. Beside that i prefer to observation what going on before i get to sit down at the open seat and know who you playing against.

Just my thought and how i go about at the poker table. It work very well for me, it may not work for other. Being soild player knowing you can ISOLATE anyones at that table because they know nothing about you when you show up for the first time. Indeed after said all above then when you do decided to play again at the casino some of those regs will figured you out sooner or later be careful and shift gears, and keep them off gaurd.


 
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Wed Feb 01, 2012, 03:34 PM
(#11)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I have only every played live once but in this facility No observers where allowed in the poker room. So were i agree observing the table is an ideal tactic, it is not always posible.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Thu Feb 02, 2012, 01:53 AM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
This is a nice way to open the exercise, to get people thinking about game selection.

I'm taking the 2-5 seat.

First of all, we are rolled to take a shot at this game, and we have been thinking about it. We have been smashing it lately and our confidence is high, so if there is a good 2-5 line up now would be a great time to pull the trigger on that shot.

The 2-5 lineup looks good to me. We have 1 whale in the game (the dentist) and that can be enough to feed the whole table. Beyond that though we may also have decent spots in seats 3, 5, 6, and 7. Seat 8, although unknown to us, I think is meant to imply he's a solid player because he's topping off his stack that's only a quarter down, but that's no big deal... he may still turn out to be poor and we have position on him anyway for the time being. There is a lot of profit that can be had on this table, should easily be more $/hour than in the $1-$2 games. I would like to get on the whales left however, so I'll ask the dealer for a seat change when something opens. I would do this anyway as I don't like the 1 and 9 holes... too close to the dealer and I can't see the other half of the table.

3-6 limit with the retirees day shift sounds blech. Small profit margins and terribly boring.

The 1-2 main games both look very good as described, and they're set up that way to entice us to wait is my guess. But there's a major problem... we won't get seated in either of those games. We'll be waiting for a seat in one of the must move games, which are undescribed (and not likely to be quite as good looking as the main games). Additional problems that go along with this... even when feeder games are good, they change more quickly than normal as players get moved to the main games and new players sit in. And, as was stated players get moved in the order in which they were seated. That means with 2 feeder games there are 17 players ahead of us to move once we get seated. In other words, we could actually be waiting several hours to get a seat in one of the main games, and that game will very likely look completely different when we do get there. So if we opt to wait for 1-2, I think we're passing up a clearly profitable spot in the 2-5 to roll the dice on what we'll get stuck with in 1-2 (which will surely be profitable as well no doubt, but likely not as much $/hour as 2-5 and it will be an unknown in terms of what we'll be getting).

So, I will take the immediate seat in 2-5, ask the dealer for a seat change when available, AND keep my name on the 1-2 list. When a seat is open for me on 1-2, I'll have the option to just pass the seat, ask Sophie to roll me over (put me back at the bottom of the list), or if the 2-5 game turns out to not be what I expect (all the other players are good, the dentist leaves, etc) I can move over to what is likely greener pastures in 1-2.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
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Thu Feb 02, 2012, 11:41 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
^^ THAT Folks, is a PERFECT run down of exactly what a cash game player using good game selection as part of his "meta game" would be thinking!

Good catch Dave on the "enticement"...that was the EXACT intent!

The 1/2 main games are fat, in fact they are as fat as the 2/5's, if not a bit fatter. But as Dave states, you will have to spend a HUGE amount of time in the feeder game you sit at, and a lot can change in those main games before you get there.

On top of this, we are +eV players, and our profit is a function of our TIME spent playing. Do we really want to spent around half of our likely session time in a feeder game, where many of the bigger stacks are going to LEAVE our table for the main game? If we knew we could stay for 12 or 14 hours, and play our A game throughout that time, this might be an option, but with a 2/5 seat open immediately, and nothing hugely "threatening" there, our BR has grown enough that we can surely risk taking a shot.

As Dave states, the 3/6 game is just "meh". It is a FLHE game where many of our post flop skills will not be really useful, and it is also full of "old timers". Those older folks tend to be quite tight in terms of giving up chips, so our profit potential sitting at that game while we wait for a seat at 1/2 is pretty marginal.

Leaving and coming back another is also going to result in a small "loss", as we would have paid for the gas to get here, as well as our time investment, and we'd have no way to re-coup that this week at all.

So I too think I'd grab the seat at the 2/5 since we have a bit of info on the opp's there, the stacks look quite nice, and we can start making money immediately.

I will leave this up a few more hours, and then we will move on to the 2nd part.

Good responses folks!

Thanks.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
Old
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Thu Feb 02, 2012, 02:47 PM
(#14)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Hi! JDean, Thank you for starting this. It is interesting to learn about game selection which is very beneficial for people like myself who are the starting point of our poker journey.

Cheers
 
Old
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Thu Feb 02, 2012, 06:15 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
OK!

Time to move on...

It seems that the vote went in favor of immediately sitting at the 2/5 seat offered by Sophie, so that is what we will do...

I will now open a new thread, with new options. That one will be titled: "You choose the ACTION! (table reads and pre flop).

Stayed tuned...


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Thu Feb 02, 2012 at 07:51 PM..
 
Old
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:28 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Anyone interested in trying another round of this?
 
Old
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:56 PM
(#17)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Anyone interested in trying another round of this?
I'm in


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:58 PM
(#18)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Count me in to!







CannonLee



Quintuple Bracelet Winner

 
Old
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:02 PM
(#19)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Yes, i have just seen/read this thread & sure to be lot more info to be gained.(I've not played live, will like too soon as there's local pub games/tournaments, i which to join, any info will beneficial to me in future ty)
 
Old
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:23 PM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Me too,

Really liked these made me think alot and I learnt a lot from them.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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