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Flopped trips on a drawing board

View Poll Results: What would you do here? (watch the vid first)
Fold. He's bound to hit it then we are out. 0 0%
Flat him, wait and make sure we have best hand. 7 53.85%
Min raise 1 7.69%
big raise (how much!!) 5 38.46%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Flopped trips on a drawing board - Sat Feb 04, 2012, 10:40 AM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
What would you do? Its the second level of the $27 Saturday knockout



Its only second level and villain has been quite agressive also noticed some negative chat. Have seen him show down 66 checked down and his picked up a few pots post on a relative passive table for a knockout.
If hes paying attention he should see a player playing TAG maybe stealing in position who has not yet had to showdown.

If you voted I thank you could you also say why you choose your option.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by Grade b; Sat Feb 04, 2012 at 10:46 AM.. Reason: added info
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 11:50 AM
(#2)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Hi! Grade B,

I would flat call here as the only hand that beats our hand at this point is A,A and if the opp has that hand than be it. If we raise on the flop the opp would obviously call with his big A's but might fold other pocket pairs 9,9+ and we would like keep the opp in the pot to extract as much value as possible.

However drawback of flat calling is if the opp is on a flush draw (with suited broadway cards) then we are letting him draw cheaply. Also if the opp puts us on flush draw and if another spade shows on the turn that could be action killer for our hand. But I would be willing to take that chance in order to encourage the opp to invest more chips in the pot to extract max. value. If the turn is a brick and the opp is still betting into us I would raise on the turn to build the pot with the intention of getting it AI on the river depending on the board texture.

Cheers.

Last edited by deadeyz; Sat Feb 04, 2012 at 11:52 AM.. Reason: amend
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 12:23 PM
(#3)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
I voted for a big raise here, probably 80-100% of the pot. I would be reasonably sure of the best hand with your set, but there are a lot of potential draws. If he comes along, then re-evaluate on the turn, if he comes over the top, then I would fold.

Personally I find these medium pairs tricky to play, and would have probably folded to the 3 bet. There are almost always overcards on the flop or draws that can beat you, in the early going this puts you to a difficult decision. I try to avoid these situations early.

Nice hand for analysis!!

 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 01:30 PM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I voted for a big raise!

This is a MTT and this looks like a great spot to double early. No reads, but this is a $27 buy in so I'll assume the bb knows how to play. Why is he reraising pf and why is he making a donk bet on the flop? He might just be aggressive, but the line fits pretty nicely with holding AK. Preflop reraise, then raising with tptk on what may be a scary board for him too. Set over set can happen but is rare. In a MTT I ignore it.

So my set is better than tptk, so Im raising but how much. Id make a potsized reraise and plan on getting all in on the turn. If it is a turbo I may just shove the flop and be done with it

Curious what the experts say...
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 03:32 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi gradeb!

In this situation, I like the flat here. The opp's bet of 300 into a pot that will be 1095 if we call (27%) prices out a flush draw... IF.. there is another bet on the turn. The odds that the opp will hit only on the turn is 18% for their 9 outs, if they have a flush draw. Since the opp priced out a flush draw, most of the time, the opp will have Ax here (we just hope it isn't AA).
I would want to let the opp have the opportunity to make another bet on the turn or river, or at least have the opportunity to call a bet from me on the turn/river.
If I would make a large raise here, the opp could easily fold Ax and I would not be able to extract further value for my set of 8's on later streets.

If the opp made a smaller bet that would price in a flush draw, then I would raise, but since the opp priced it out with their bet, I'd just flat here. I also will make sure that there will be a bet on the turn that will price out a flush draw again if a spade does not hit (and wouldn't have a problem if the opp makes the bet for me again).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 05:54 PM
(#6)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
I voted flat... but only because it's the second level of a $27 tourney.
See a turn, see what he does, get him when you got him... oh I don't know, I wouldn't play a $27 tourney
In a .25, I'm all in.
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 07:32 PM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi b i voted min raise, to ask the question,but if hes loose he will probably shove even on one ace so its one of them hands when the player does count,will he fold for min raise?or will he shove but then again he might have pp aces nothing says he cant have them.It would be an easier decission against a more tag player indeed.
To be honest i think i may of just folded thinking about it and try get a better spot on him.

Last edited by holdemace486; Sat Feb 04, 2012 at 07:39 PM.. Reason: mistake
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 07:37 PM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
I voted flat... but only because it's the second level of a $27 tourney.
See a turn, see what he does, get him when you got him... oh I don't know, I wouldn't play a $27 tourney
In a .25, I'm all in.
LOL me too this is part of the MOM promotion


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 07:42 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hey Holdem!

any opp with Ax that shoves here is only going to accomplish one thing and that is to get themselves value-owned. The only hands that will call a shove are hands that will beat Ax, so shoving with this board and Ax is not a play that I would make.
I also wouldn't want to reopen the betting, as I'm not folding a set here and would not want to give an opp a chance to shove. I'd only want to shove or call a shove when I was sure that I had the best hand.... which as of now, there is no way to determine if I will in the end, due to the flush draw.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 07:48 PM
(#10)
Dany Boy NZ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
hi b i voted min raise, to ask the question,but if hes loose he will probably shove even on one ace so its one of them hands when the player does count,will he fold for min raise?or will he shove but then again he might have pp aces nothing says he cant have them.It would be an easier decission against a more tag player indeed.
To be honest i think i may of just folded thinking about it and try get a better spot on him.
If you do that then you make worse hands that you could get value out of fold and you open up a semi bluff oppourtunity that you just said you would fold too, i deffinatly think you should call see the turn hope its a friendly card and then if he raised again i would probably shove, this way you priceout a flush draw from trying to river you and your probably still going to get AK AQ to call you, i can not understand folding a set here unless you have a pretty good read on your opponent and a danger card comes on the turn.

You have to ask what kind of hands would he 3bet you preflop with knowing he would have to play the rest of the hand out of position? In my opinion thats unluikly to be sutied KQ or similar hands which are drawing to the flush. It is far more likly he has an over pair to ur 88 or AK AQ

Thats my thorts on it
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 09:12 PM
(#11)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hi Grade b,
I voted big raise of $750 to $900, 2.5-3.0 x his bet.
With plans of taking the pot now or getting it all in now.
I would rather win the pot now than get sucked out on.(but thats just me)
Hopefully he has AQ or AK and is willing to stack off with it.
If he has QQ or KK he's prob not putting any more in the pot unless he hits and sucks out.
Chuckkky
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 09:15 PM
(#12)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Forgot to mention AA.
If he has pocket Aces, I am going broke here.
 
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Mon Feb 06, 2012, 04:19 PM
(#13)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607


Now as soon as i scraped in the pot i started thinking WHY would you do that you **** **** its not a move i would have done in the big 2.10 or a 1.10. If i could have this back over i would pause and flat him. But i did win the pot and i did give my self a talking to.

Hope you enjoyed the idea may post some more later.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Flopped set IP vs PF 3bettor - Mon Feb 06, 2012, 06:40 PM
(#14)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
What would you do? Its the second level of the $27 Saturday knockout

Its only second level and villain has been quite agressive also noticed some negative chat. Have seen him show down 66 checked down and his picked up a few pots post on a relative passive table for a knockout.
If hes paying attention he should see a player playing TAG maybe stealing in position who has not yet had to showdown.

If you voted I thank you could you also say why you choose your option.

Grade b
Not quite sure if I read your intro on the villain correctly. But I assume the following is true:
You started the hand with 90bb’s; you were 3bet by an aggressive villain OOP in the BB. This villain has played with positional awareness against a tight table, until now. Either this is his first chance to be aggressive OOP, or he has a real hand. It also seems like the villain liked to be aggressive in a ‘first in’ scenario. The villain wasn’t post-flop aggressive with his small PP (66), checked to SD.

Pre-Flop:
I like your raise and call of the 3bet IP. If you were OOP, you would have to either fold or 4bet your 88.

Flop:
You have a great flop! Villain will be C-betting this flop almost 100%. It would be nice to stack him, but in a tourney, you might scare him away by being too aggressive. If the villain has a true 3bet value hand (premium pair, or strong Ace), then you don’t have to be afraid of the 2 spades; best type of flush he might have is a backdoor flush. I also wouldn’t be too paranoid of ‘set over set’ (at this time).

At this point you don’t want to scare him off. Plan your ‘turn’ action! You want to build the pot on the turn, so that there is more money in the pot than your stack! If you accomplish this, then you can shove the river, and villain may call his made hand thinking you have a busted flush.

There is a bit of caution you must show to this villain; you said he checked down his small PP. If he gets very aggressive, you will need to reevaluate. If at any time you feel uncomfortable, you can always try to check it down with your SD value.

I would ‘flat’ here! Get more info on the ‘turn’, and most likely set up the pot for a river shove!
 
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flat - Mon Feb 06, 2012, 07:59 PM
(#15)
grampex's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 37
I'm all in, I either win or lose, just a matter of how you can get the rest of his chips in the pot. I flat and hope he bets for me.
 
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Mon Feb 06, 2012, 08:25 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dany Boy NZ View Post
If you do that then you make worse hands that you could get value out of fold and you open up a semi bluff oppourtunity that you just said you would fold too, i deffinatly think you should call see the turn hope its a friendly card and then if he raised again i would probably shove, this way you priceout a flush draw from trying to river you and your probably still going to get AK AQ to call you, i can not understand folding a set here unless you have a pretty good read on your opponent and a danger card comes on the turn.

You have to ask what kind of hands would he 3bet you preflop with knowing he would have to play the rest of the hand out of position? In my opinion thats unluikly to be sutied KQ or similar hands which are drawing to the flush. It is far more likly he has an over pair to ur 88 or AK AQ

Thats my thorts on it
+1 this, I agree totally. I'll flat with 2nd set all day long, and if my opp has all of 19% to hit a flush, so be it.

I want to build a bigger pot this earlier in a MTT, and will incur some risk to do so.

Even if it IS a spade on the turn though, I am not insta-folding. I have a draw to the boat, and if I make it, and the opp does have a flush, I'm probably stacking him.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 

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