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A thought on American Participation

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A thought on American Participation - Sat Feb 04, 2012, 04:40 PM
(#1)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,507
I have had this thought running through my head for a while now.

I may have this wrong, so please feel free to correct me.

1. American Poker Players are not allowed to play online Poker for money.... ?

2. American Poker Players ARE allowed to play online Poker for play money.... ?

If the preceding two statements are correct, then I can see no reason why American PSO members cannot compete in the Leagues.

Please bear with me whilst I explain my thoughts.

Entry to the Open Skill League is available to ALL Pokerstars Clientelle, but only PSO members acquire points and are added to the Leaderboard.

Entry to the Premier League is open only to PSO members and is contingent on either finishing High enough up the Leaderboard in the Open League, (thus being promoted ), Qualifying through the Premier Skill League Qualifyiers, or already being in the Premier League and finishing in the top 800. And having 20VPP or more.

In the Open League, they have filters in place to sort out the Members of PSO from the non-members, also to distinguish between those that have 20VPP and those that do not.

In the Premier League they have filters in place to seperate those that have 150VPP or more, from those that have 20VPP+ but less than 150VPP.

If the restriction for membership of the Premier Skill League of having 20VPP or more, was lifted, thus allowing people with less than 20VPP to participate, this would greatly facilitate the following.

Gaining VPP's can only happen through participation in Tournaments requiring an entry fee, or real money ring games. As a consequence of this American Poker Players cannot accrue VPP's.
Therefore, if an EXTRA filter was added to the two Leagues that recognised a 0VPP count, it would allow American players to once again partake of the Leagues, and would work something like this:-

Just using first place on the leaderboards as examples.

Open League. 1st Place with 20VPP = $1,500 1st Place with less than 20VPP = $150 1st Place with 0VPP = $0.00

Premier League. 1st Place with 150VPP = $5,000 1st Place with 20VPP = $500 1st Place with 0VPP = $0.00.

Because the American players cannot gain VPP's and there are no monetary prizes for 0VPP participants, those players ( And PokerStars ) would not be infringing the rules, as both Leagues are freerolls and as such do not require an entry fee.

I am quite sure that quite a few of our American PSO members would be willing to rejoin the Leagues under these conditions, as it sure as hell beats what they have at present.

We would still get people who would complain that they were being deprived of the higher prizes because some American had finished higher on the Leaderboard than they had, but it would, I feel, encourage those players that have moved away, to come back to the fold.

Our Cousins from across the Pond would only have bragging rights, but at least it would keep them in the loop, until the American Legislature comes to its senses.

 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 05:12 PM
(#2)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
As an American player, I love your idea.

The problem resides in the league software. According to the PSO, player ranks cannot be determined in a non-cash tournament. This is why there is a $10 prize for the freeroll games. Since American players cannot participate in games where there is a cash prize offered, we would still be barred by PokerStars. We would become ghosts, unable to achieve either a rank or a prize.

Our only option at this time is to hope the courts come to a swift conclusion. Once criminal charges have been ajudicated, perhaps legislative action will return us to the virtual felt.
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 05:25 PM
(#3)
brkn80's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
What about non US players with 0 vpp's, wouldn't this from disqualify them from receiving a prize that they would earn in the Open league.
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 06:15 PM
(#4)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,507
brkn:

With the requirement of a certain amount of VPP's for the various cash payments, it is obvious that both PSO and PokerStars want people to spend money to earn them, which is their prerogative.

At present, only in the Open League can you earn cash without having VPP's, from the Leaderboard.

Therefore for Non US players, it behoves them to get VPP's if they want a slice of the cake. They would only have to enter a 10c 360man turbo to get a diminutive VPP credit which is above 0

and Cairn:

I understood that Americans could not play for and receive cash.

If the filter was set to recognise American players i.e. through the non acquisition of VPP and thus bar them from receiving any monetary renumeration, even from the $10 tourney pool, which judging by the way the present filters work, shouldn't be too difficult for the Boffins to work out, then I don't see a problem with American participation.


Last edited by Bill Curran; Sat Feb 04, 2012 at 06:17 PM..
 
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Sat Feb 04, 2012, 07:08 PM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Not going to happen. For various reasons.

And if several states are serious about their intent to start up online lottery purchases it will most likely be a moot point sooner than later anyway.

And Cairn,at that point you can forget about any court machinations. Hell the DOJ is already moving in that direction.

Unless you really think our government will be willing to argue that online poker is gambling and thus illegal whilst at the same time giving their assent to online lotteries.
 
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Sun Feb 05, 2012, 05:27 AM
(#6)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Not going to happen. For various reasons.

And if several states are serious about their intent to start up online lottery purchases it will most likely be a moot point sooner than later anyway.

And Cairn,at that point you can forget about any court machinations. Hell the DOJ is already moving in that direction.

Unless you really think our government will be willing to argue that online poker is gambling and thus illegal whilst at the same time giving their assent to online lotteries.

I may be out of line here, but gambling isn't illegal, it's controlled, usually by the State Government, i.e. Nevada Gaming Control Board, NewJersy Casino Control Commission.

Now, what needs to happen is Stars needs a Gaming license that is Valid in USA. Which is why they tried hooking up with Wynn Resorts last year(my guess). I don't know why PS doesn't just set up a Casino in Vegas or A.C. I think it would be a big player within a couple years, seeings the popularity of the site, and should give them access to players in USA again. The downside to this would be all the footwork, and cash needed to open a live casino(seems pokerstars has enough people.) I'm not up on their financial status, however, they rake quite a bit in, and considering the amount of cash that they're currently missing out on by not having US players, I would think it would be worthwhile in the end.

Before any of this takes place, the DOJ, along with the individual States need to figure out who runs the "Gaming" show. Personally, the "Individual State" is the 1 that issues "licenses", and should be the Sole Officiating body of Gaming within each "Individual State".

That being said, Stars still has a problem with the DOJ for setting up "illegal" deposit and cashout possibilities, that have to be dealt with 1st.

Maybe all the americans should just send up 1000 bricks and some mortar each, and I can build them nice apartment buildings...

All I can say is Thanks to the Federal Liberals, we gonna be free to "smoke it if you got it",and from the Provincial Libs, play online poker. Thinkin' I'll definately be voting Liberal. Jack Layton, RIP dude, you did the footwork, good job! Rest well my friend.

Last edited by Stakehorse75; Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 06:07 AM..
 
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Sun Feb 05, 2012, 01:41 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hello.

Any Cash play on Stars is prohibited for american players. The Open Skill League still awards a small CASH prize, therefore Americans are not allowed to compete.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Feb 05, 2012, 03:25 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post
I may be out of line here, but gambling isn't illegal, it's controlled, usually by the State Government, i.e. Nevada Gaming Control Board, NewJersy Casino Control Commission.

Now, what needs to happen is Stars needs a Gaming license that is Valid in USA. Which is why they tried hooking up with Wynn Resorts last year(my guess). I don't know why PS doesn't just set up a Casino in Vegas or A.C. I think it would be a big player within a couple years, seeings the popularity of the site, and should give them access to players in USA again. The downside to this would be all the footwork, and cash needed to open a live casino(seems pokerstars has enough people.) I'm not up on their financial status, however, they rake quite a bit in, and considering the amount of cash that they're currently missing out on by not having US players, I would think it would be worthwhile in the end.

Before any of this takes place, the DOJ, along with the individual States need to figure out who runs the "Gaming" show. Personally, the "Individual State" is the 1 that issues "licenses", and should be the Sole Officiating body of Gaming within each "Individual State".

That being said, Stars still has a problem with the DOJ for setting up "illegal" deposit and cashout possibilities, that have to be dealt with 1st.

Maybe all the americans should just send up 1000 bricks and some mortar each, and I can build them nice apartment buildings...

All I can say is Thanks to the Federal Liberals, we gonna be free to "smoke it if you got it",and from the Provincial Libs, play online poker. Thinkin' I'll definately be voting Liberal. Jack Layton, RIP dude, you did the footwork, good job! Rest well my friend.

All of what you say is true Stake,and it's not MY intent to opine on the legality or illegality of gambling (or whether poker is gambling as much as it's a skill game for that matter...),but on the federal level the US has been,at least in the eyes of many in Congress and some in the DOJ under the current and previous administrations been operating under the auspices of the UIGEA--- Unlawful Internet GAMBLING Enforcement Act.

A law so obvious and onerous in it's BS that it was never even voted on via it's own merits,but instead was stuck on the SAFE Port Act,a bill dealing with port security,as a "rider" by former Senate Majority Leader "Doctor" Bill Frist (just google "quack" or "hypocritical gasbag"). Now what politician in their right mind was going to vote against a law pertaining to port security in this country 5 years after 9/11? Pretty much none and I highly doubt more than 10% of them even knew the rider had been attached to the bill in the first place.

The main point of the UIGEA is as follows..."prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of another person in a bet or wager that involves the use of the Internet and that is unlawful under any federal or state law." It's the PAYMENT part of this statement that the DOJ pursued,basically saying that the very act of Stars and the other sites monetarily servicing their customers,either for deposits or cashouts,amounted to bank fraud.

As I said in my earlier post though,there have already been some in the DOJ who are walking back the the case against the poker sites by saying that ONLY sports wagering falls under the jurisdiction of the UIGEA.

So we'll see. I stand by my opinion though,,,if states want the ability to sell lottery tickets online,which many are pushing for,then the legality of what is and isn't online gambling is going to have to be settled once and for all.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Feb 05, 2012 at 03:28 PM..
 

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