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You Choose the ACTION! (The Flop #1)

View Poll Results: What action do we choose?
1) FOLD. 1 6.67%
2) CALL. 7 46.67%
3) RAISE Small, making it $200 to $250 to go. 4 26.67%
4) RAISE Medium, making it $251 to $350 to go. 0 0%
5) RAISE Large, making it $351 to All In to go. 1 6.67%
6) BLANK (This is the choice for me to use to see the voting, please do not pick this). 2 13.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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You Choose the ACTION! (The Flop #1) - Mon Feb 06, 2012, 03:21 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hey all, we are back again for the action on the FLOP!

The group elected to CALL the last street, so we will go with that action.

Following the Dentist's raise, we glance at our cards again, and calmly move a $64 call toward the middle. Pot = $158. (see table graphic for stack sizes)

ACTION:

(Please note: the pot size shown includes the $100 bet by the Dentist. The pre flop pot was $158.)

The dealer taps the table twice, and flops the cards: Kd 3c 9s

The Dentist announces in a conversational level voice (not overly loud or soft), "I bet", and he moves $100 forward. He does not lean forward to look a us, nor make any other comment. He adopts a totally neutral looking posture.

What do we do?

1) FOLD.
2) CALL.
3) RAISE Small, making it $200 to $250 to go.
4) RAISE Medium, making it $251 to $350 to go.
5) RAISE Large, making it $351 to All In to go.
6) BLANK (This is the choice for me to use to see the voting, please do not pick this).

We will move on to the next street of action in approximately 2 days, so get your votes in!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:38 PM..
 
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Mon Feb 06, 2012, 08:59 PM
(#2)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Ok so poll says i voted already if so i hope it was call.

We flopped best possible holdings for our hand (well not best but still good)

As Expected we are Cbet. I want to "wait and see" the response to us coming along.

I Call here.


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 05:51 AM
(#3)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
Yeah I got funny results for the voting too so I hope it's there (call).
Anyway, my reasoning:

He got AA, AK, 99 and got us, in which case he's value-betting. 33 or KK are not very likely.
In fact AK is not all that likely either, though certainly possible.
Or he's got something like AQ, JJ, 88.. spades... not much to improve on, he's c-betting because he has to anyway.
Flop is dry enough that we don't have much to push out.
His hand can improve but so can ours.
We don't really want to fold to a bet less than half the pot with good kicker on top pair, do we?
No way we have a monster (yet :), if we raise we can get 3-bet before we can improve or have any more input from the cards or the player... my basic beginner reasoning can only point to a flat call.

More advanced reasoning by good players would be good to read.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 08:03 AM
(#4)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Sorry - small raise

I want to judge his reaction to the raise to gain a better perspective of his possible holdings.



the high end of the small raise too or the medium raise also would work

by calling you just let him see another card for the price that's good to him and he could just c-bet again and leave you still guessing as to what he has

Last edited by joker41673; Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 08:06 AM.. Reason: post notes
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 08:13 AM
(#5)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
Hm. Methinks the free card is just as good for us, if not better.
And the raise gives him a chance to go totally dental and push us out with the best hand.
I mean, if he 3-bet big, wouldn't you likely fold?
Let's see a turn on the cheap is my reasoning.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 08:18 AM
(#6)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
Hm. Methinks the free card is just as good for us, if not better.
And the raise gives him a chance to go totally dental and push us out with the best hand.
I mean, if he 3-bet big, wouldn't you likely fold?
Let's see a turn on the cheap is my reasoning.
My playing style is unconventional at best so that would be a good question.

I should have payed more attention to our stack size 1st before choosing an action.

Betting more than half our stack into the pot is wrong so my course of action here now would be a shove.

 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:26 AM
(#7)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
i really dont like calling down here..
if we call, we have less than a pot sized bet left behind, and can only win a showdown.
we really set up an ugly SPR here to do anything but come over the top with a shove and hope we didn't run into AA or AK
i mean what did we expect to flop w/ KQs? top pair? eeeyup! and that's just what we got.. so now we have to go with our hand (as unappealing as that is) and shove to at least give ourselves two shots at winning.
all the chips are going in by the river anyway (way more than likely)
so i'm shoving
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 11:20 AM
(#8)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
I would opt for a fold here (a bit nity) but it looks more like a value bet to me. Once I have called a raise in position w/ K,Qs I would looking to make straight/flush or possibly two pairs to continue w/ the hand after the flop. Flatting here would put us in a really awkward spot on the turn and shoving on the flop would be too risky when the opp could easily have A,K or even set of 9's.

Cheers
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:10 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
1 Fold
2 Call
2 Raise Small
1 Raise large.

That is results so far...good discussions all, very nice points being made!

Tonight I'm going out to play a live $50 MTT as part of a weekly League to (possibly) win a WSOP seat (JWK and TheLangolier will also be there). So sometime tomorrow mid day we will move on!


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:15 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
By looking at his previous plays, to me, he's a LAG player (very aggressive). He wants to scare us. So I'll min raise him, he folds great, if he calls, then we'll see and if he raises than it's an all in. He's bluffing.

I want to go all in, but I want him to commit the all in first, so I can extract the most out of him. If I go all in, he might fold since he's just an aggressive player.

So for me it's a min raise
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:26 PM
(#11)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Tonight I'm going out to play a live $50 MTT as part of a weekly League to (possibly) win a WSOP seat (JWK and TheLangolier will also be there).
Good luck guys, take it down for PSO.

Cheers.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 01:14 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I like a min-raise here, the dentist could easily have 10's, JJ, QQ (or AA) and I want to put the pressure on him and see his reaction, especially from a LAG fishy player.


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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 02:29 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Please note folks...

Our "read" on the Dentist is NOT as a "LAG".

You all may want to go back to the initial info link here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...the-lead-in%29

and here...

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-pre-flop-1%29

And see what we know about his past play...


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Last edited by JDean; Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:31 PM..
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 03:57 PM
(#14)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Please note folks...

Our "read" on the Dentist is NOT as a "LAG".

You all may want to go back to the initial info link here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...the-lead-in%29

and here...

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-pre-flop-1%29

And see what we know about his past play...
Seat 1: Dentist, $1250 when we sit, $1235 now.
We really are not sure if he is as bad as we remember, but we do know that he has played 2 hands since we have been here.
#1 he raised up over 3 limpers, by making it $225 to go. All folded.
He laughed about it, called all the table "suckers", and tabled 97o face up.
In the other hand, he called a pre flop raise, then mucked the flop
(see hand vs. Reg 2 below).


And now for the third hand, another big raise, to me, he's a LAG or a fish. (or an Idiot bully....LOL) Doesn't matter, it's still a min raise for me.


 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:04 PM
(#15)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
i'm committed, if he has AA, KK, AK or 99, nh, i'll get his stack later.

there are many more hands in his range, though, particularly TT - QQ which i want him to stack off with.

if i raise i might give him a reason to fold those and, of course, his outright bluffs, so i'm calling which leaves just short of a pot sized bet for him to shove on the turn.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:37 PM
(#16)
EmotiveKiwi's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 140
I'm putting up a small raise here. I want to see his reaction to our raise and apply pressure to him. He seems to be a fishy player perhaps even trying to play the table bully. However I believe he may have either connected with the flop or has a pocket pair 99, TT, JJ, AA due to his bet on the flop.

With our KQ blocker and the K on the board it is less likely that he has KK, AK, QQ, AQ (although still possible).

We are an equity favourite on the flop to his range here so i'm putting small raise and seeing how he reacts and may also give us the initiative on future streets if he just calls our raise.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 05:02 PM
(#17)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
i believe raising is a mistake and achieves nothing, it bloates the pot to, at least, 458 (558 if he calls) with only 224 behind.

it looks very strong and might make him fold hands that we beat only, a shove would be better,imo, but i think a call is best here letting him bluff off his stack.

also we could possibly get away if an ace appears.
 
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Great flop for KhQh, and a SPR of 3 - Tue Feb 07, 2012, 06:56 PM
(#18)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hey all, we are back again for the action on the FLOP!

The group elected to CALL the last street, so we will go with that action.

Following the Dentist's raise, we glance at our cards again, and calmly move a $64 call toward the middle. Pot = $158. (see table graphic for stack sizes)

ACTION:
The dealer taps the table twice, and flops the cards: Kd 3c 9s

The Dentist announces in a conversational level voice (not overly loud or soft), "I bet", and he moves $100 forward. He does not lean forward to look a us, nor make any other comment. He adopts a totally neutral looking posture.

What do we do?

We will move on to the next street of action in approximately 2 days, so get your votes in!

-JDean
I didn’t catch the PF action, or if there are any reads.

Looking at the stack sizes (it looks like a $3/$6 game), I assume the following:

If the $64 call we made was a total of $64 and not an additional $64, the PF action was possibly:
a) 5 limpers, then the SB raises to $64, others fold, BTN (we) call.

If the $64 was in addition to previous bets, the PF action may have been:
b) 3 limpers, then the SB raises to $70, others fold, BTN (we) call.

First scenario seems more realistic. I’ll just play it from the flop, as outlined below:

The PF action created a SPR of 3. With a SPR of 3, we are looking for at least top pair to commit to the pot (otherwise why get involved in the hand). We get an ideal flop for our KhQh. The dentist makes a smallish cbet; we want to get all our money in the pot, but don’t want to lose the dentist. The board is ‘dry’, and any aggressive action by us at the moment, will mostly serve to value own us. By calling, we will have a pot size stack by the ‘turn’, and will make an appropriate action, depending on the dentists' action.

I’m just calling the cbet on the flop!

.
 
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Tue Feb 07, 2012, 07:40 PM
(#19)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Everybody has it's own way to play, but calling, to me is the worst play one can make. You are giving the dentist an extra card to look at, WHY? If he wants to look, make him pay.
If you have AA, do you call or do you bet? You bet, so why call in this situation?

Going all in, again, I think it's wrong. If this was a tournament, than yes, because you are committed, but this is a cash game, with a min raise, you are testing him. He folded the previous hand and the other hand before that, he donked everybody. If he folds, it doesn't matter if it's all in or min raise, so why take the risk of losing it all?

I personally don't go by what books, videos and what you should do in a situation or what the numbers game dictates you to do. Feelings and reads (and even then) should tell you how to play the hand.

This is a crazy dentist (they have lots of money, so what if he loses $1,000) is V$PIP as per his last 3 hands is 100%, he donked, folded after a big bet, that's what he's doing now.

So min raise, pay if you want to see the next card, then we'll see after the turn. Definitely not a call nor an all in. That's how I would play it.
 
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Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:11 PM
(#20)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Well I am going to go against the grain here I guess... I don’ t like raising.

First of all we are in a classic way ahead, way behind situation, and it is almost always not good to raise in a WAWB spot because we end up value owning ourselves far too often. WAWB means our equity is either very good, or very bad. On this board when we’re way ahead, he’s got few outs (AQ has 3, QQ 1, JJ 2, etc). When we’re behind to AK, AA, or a set, we’re smashed. There is no in-between like we might have on a more wet board. The guy is ABC weak tight by nature, if we raise we will fold out all his worse hands and any bluffs in his range, and only get action from AK+.

Second, I’m getting a very different read/vibe from this hand than most. The physical demeanor of the villain is showing strength imo, and the bet sizing is as well (see below). The anxiousness for the action to come to him pre indicates a hand he views as a big hand, anticipating the impending action. The raise sizing pre indicates strength (I explained why I think this in the prior action thread). The flop c-bet sizing of 2/3rds of the pot plus the calm demeanor in which he bets indicates confidence. If he were bluffing, I would expect this guy to be more physically aggressive (like glaring at us for example) or animated (maybe slapping a bet out).

Also regarding the reads, consider what we know. The guy is not a LAG. The baseline info is that he is ABC weak tight, has a big mouth, and is prone to tilting off when he takes a couple beats. Right now he’s winning (double the starting stack, not tilting) and feeling good (proclaiming is acumen -haha good word JD-, and making a silly preflop bluff to 45x over limpers in one of the two hands since we sat down). He’s still fundamentally weak-tight however (the other hand we saw, limp/calling a raise pre and folding the flop) and bad (see 45x raise lol).

The preflop raise size is not a big bet to this guy. It looks big to us because it’s larger than a
normal raise over a few limpers might be, but in the dentists unskilled mind it’s not a huge bet, 14x over limpers. If anything the sizing info we have suggests this is a real hand as the only observation we have of a preflop bluff over limpers he made it 45x. So everything I’m seeing points to strength tbh.

At any rate, if we raise, even a min-raise to 200 puts over half our starting stack in the middle. Putting that much in and folding is really bad, but if we put it in and get action we are virtually always beat imo… this guy isn’t calling us with JJ or AQ, but he’s not going to fold AK+ in a million years in this spot.

Despite my impression that this guy has a big hand, I think folding to the c-bet is just too tight. It is still possible he’s got a JJ type hand and is simply following through with a c-bet.

That leaves calling, and in a WAWB situation calling is often better than raising anyway.

A couple other thoughts… raising “to see where you’re at” is not really good. Generally we should be raising for value or as a bluff. Information can be a good bi-product, but it shouldn’t be the primary reason we raise. In this case a raise is not a good bluff (no better hands than ours will fold) nor is it a good value bet (no worse hands than ours will call)… if a bet or raise doesn’t fit well into one of these categories we should reconsider it. Also, our call on this flop actually shows a lot of strength as well imo. There’s no draws other than a gut shot, so our call screams king or better. A live weak-tight player is not going to barrel the turn on a bluff, if we call and have the best hand, I expect him to shut down on the turn. So in order to avoid stacking myself off to better hands my plan will be to call, and If he bombs the turn, just fold if I haven’t hit a K or Q. (Yes this would leave us open to being bluffed, BUT like I’ve said in my classes it’s ok to take an exploitable line if our opponent won’t exploit us… he likely doesn’t expect us to be folding after calling this flop bet, and we are being given every indication he’s not bluffing imo, so if he does bomb the turn I expect it to be value line from a weak-tight guy every time in this spot, and we lose to his entire value range which is AK+, so we can fold and not pay him off).


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