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Abandoning all hope at the 1c/2c tables...

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Abandoning all hope at the 1c/2c tables... - Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:03 PM
(#1)
ah309's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 7
I almost lost it tonight, the amount of bad beats I was getting on those tables was ridiculous. AKs on a flop of 865ss. So I Cbet about half the pot. Opp calls (an annoying Ukrainian donk). The turn is my dream card - the J of spades, completing my nut flush. Opp bets small into me, so I 3 bet him back (hoping he'll call). He does (excellent!). The pot now stands at almost 50BBs. Opp checks, so I value bet about half the pot (hoping he'll call). He raises to 100BBs. Very natural for this guy though on the river, so I reraise him allin. The pot is now at 400BBs, and I show my flush. To my dismay he lucked out on quad 8s on the river card. I had to leave the table immediately or my tilt would have known no end...

I'm sure I played it right but these donk wins are driving me insane... Every time I get good cards, I win too little because everyone folds, and other than that donks call me with bad cards only to hit the miracle somewhere down the road. It's nearly ruined my bankroll. The most irritating thing about it is that I know I'm not a bad player, in my mind at the time I'm making the right move.

Needless to say, I'm moving to the 5c/10c tables. My downswing has seemingly flipped now I'm up a level or two (as has the skill and/or predictability of the players). In half an hour I've managed to cut a third off my losses, so I think I'll stay
 
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hmmmm... - Thu Feb 09, 2012, 01:36 AM
(#2)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Bad Beat ? Maybe - Really would like to see hand history - fact is on paired board - forget about the likelyhood of quads - did the idea of a full house cross your mind?

I have played over 100k hands of .01/.02 so far this year and yes I am stuck for about thirty bucks but it has been a very interesting experment to date.

I have tried short stacking - and you are correct - some people never fold so your short stack strategy can get derailled pretty easily.

If you have not heard it before - big bets are big hands - especially in deep stack poker and like it or not the .01/.02 with 250 bb buy ins is deep stack poker.

I can understand your frustration - however with barely 1000 hands tracked at ptr - I think you may be jumping to conclusions a bit too soon.

I have not sat down and written out everything I think I have learned over the last 31 days of playing multi table .01/.02 - what I will say at this point in time is:
1. as per above - big bets mean big hands
2. sticking at table buy - ins that conform to your bank roll and bank roll management guides - allows you to withstand the river quad hands and still continue to play. Busting for a full five dollar buy in may hurt some - busting for a full buy in at .05/.10 hurts more.

The final point that I would mention is that 100k+hands over a relatively short period of time really does tend to prove out the advise, expressions etc that one reads over and over - like not going broke on one pair hands, tightening up early, the importance of position and so many more.

I have seen you stack off on a preflop five bet with big slick - over 75 bb in preflop with no pair..... big leak in my opinion....

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $1.57
Hero (UTG+1): $5.10
MP: $0.80
MP+1: $0.86
CO: $1.45
BTN: $2.01
SB: $0.75
BB: $0.88
SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, MP posts DB $0.02
Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has 9:spade: J:spade:
UTG raises to $0.08, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.08, fold, BTN raises to $0.16, fold, fold, UTG raises to $0.48, fold, BTN raises to $2.01 and is all-in, UTG calls $1.09 and is all-in
Flop: ($3.27, 2 players) 5:spade: 4:diamond: Q:club:
Turn: ($3.27, 2 players) Q:diamond:
River: ($3.27, 2 players) 9:club:
UTG shows K:diamond: A:club: (One Pair, Queens) (Pre 31%, Flop 16%, Turn 7%)
BTN shows K:heart: K:club: (Two Pair, Kings and Queens) (Pre 69%, Flop 84%, Turn 93%)
BTN wins $3.16




learning to fold has been one of the toughest parts of the current experment.



good luck to you - see you at the tables.

Last edited by Astro705; Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 01:41 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 09, 2012, 04:11 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi m8t,its true what astro says,alot of players overlook full houses etc,this cost big bucks at times,even on the 1c 2c levels,i have personally learnt that they are not all donks but in fact some reallly good players,yes there is still fish in the sea but be aware unless you have the nuts,all in action is not advised in my opinion,and even the bad players get hands m8t.
Tighten up your thought process,over think if you have to,less mistakes less loss,live to fight another day , sometimes even if you think your good better to fold than loose your stack.
hope this helps m8t.
 
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A Few thoughts To Ponder - Thu Feb 09, 2012, 07:33 AM
(#4)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
1. 400BBs? What about pot control? Do not risk more than you are willing to lose. Sure, you were right to play the hand, but......,
1a. What information did you acquire when your c-bet was called on the flop.
1b. What information did you acquire when he raised the turn? It is good to think about the possible hands he has that you can beat.

2. A paired board? I love paired boards, but they are also scary. So expect a roller-coaster ride. Sometimes high card wins, sometimes two pair, and trips often are nice. I have gotten it in big and lost full house over full house. Quads are rare, and easy to bet into with another strong hand. This will not be the last time it happens to you, if you play enough poker.
2a. It is a seven card game, the river is one of those cards, an opponent can come from behind. It happens to everybody. It will at times work in your favor.

3. You are looking across the cyber table thinking ,"I can fleece this idiot," and he is often thinking the same thing back at you.
3a. Even an idiot is as likely to be dealt aces and monster hands as often as anybody.
3b. Most people think that they are good players.

4. The toughest opponents are unpredictable, irrespective and regardless of their style. Whether they are TAGs, LAGs, small ball, or maniacs. I recommend watching some of The Langoliers' videos to help identify different situations.

5. This is the most important. Variance is experienced by everyone, at every level. There are some pretty big names that are stuck well over 100K and even worse. There is no shortage of these stories in the various on-line journals and blogs.
5a. The faster the swing up, the faster the swing down.
5b. Quads still beat a flush at higher stakes.

Good luck to you. I hope you grind your bankroll steadily upwards.
 
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Thu Feb 09, 2012, 11:05 AM
(#5)
ah309's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Many thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate it! I know my post was a bit tilted there but I needed to vent my situation at the time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro705 View Post
Bad Beat ? Maybe - Really would like to see hand history - fact is on paired board - forget about the likelyhood of quads - did the idea of a full house cross your mind?

If you have not heard it before - big bets are big hands - especially in deep stack poker and like it or not the .01/.02 with 250 bb buy ins is deep stack poker.

I can understand your frustration - however with barely 1000 hands tracked at ptr - I think you may be jumping to conclusions a bit too soon.

I have seen you stack off on a preflop five bet with big slick - over 75 bb in preflop with no pair..... big leak in my opinion....

learning to fold has been one of the toughest parts of the current experment.
Full house briefly crossed my mind, but going by what this guy had acted like before it seemed to far fetched to be a possibility. I had him on two pair, maybe a straight/flush draw with suited connectors/1 gappers.

Generally a big bet will be enough to scare me off, however on this occasion I knew he had made attempts like that before (big overbets) while only holding top pair. With my flush I figured that the best he had was trips or a flush - which made sense in my mind considering I had ranged him to possibly two pair on the flop.

Learning to fold... definitely horribly difficult for me haha. I find it very hard to get away with a genuinely strong hand! Something I definitely need to work on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonk Shuffle View Post
1. 400BBs? What about pot control? Do not risk more than you are willing to lose. Sure, you were right to play the hand, but......,
1a. What information did you acquire when your c-bet was called on the flop.
1b. What information did you acquire when he raised the turn? It is good to think about the possible hands he has that you can beat.

3. You are looking across the cyber table thinking ,"I can fleece this idiot," and he is often thinking the same thing back at you.
3a. Even an idiot is as likely to be dealt aces and monster hands as often as anybody.
3b. Most people think that they are good players.
Thanks Tonk, some more good points.

1a: This guy had been known to call a few cbets before in order to scare the PFR, eventually raising the turn and showing medium pair or worse... I picked a bad spot to assume...
1b: In hindsight, a raise on the turn would have made sense more than the check raise. The check raise should have aroused more suspiscion (even though at this point I had him beaten). The check raise was slightly out of character...

3a: A horribly unfortunate truth!
3b: Haha this is true, in all honesty I probably overvalue my skills a bit. Thought the good thing about this forum is I can review my play and hopefully improve

I guess I need to work on my reading ability...
 
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Thu Feb 09, 2012, 01:25 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi ah309!

The thing that sticks out here for me is the 1/2 pot c-bet on the flop. With having the flush draw, by c-betting 1/2 pot, if either you or the opp bets the turn if a spade doesn't show up, then that large of a c-bet prices OUT the flush draw for 1 street.
There are 9 spades out there, so the 9 outs have 18% equity for one street. By betting 1/2 pot, you're making the bet 25% pot equity. The pot equity is higher than the hand equity, so it's a -EV play if someone bets the turn if it misses.
If the both you and the opp would check the turn if a spade doesn't come up, then in the long run it will be a +EV play, as then the hand would have two streets of equity, making the hand equity 36%.

I don't know how many people saw the flop, so I don't know if a smaller bet could have been done, but if I wanted to c-bet this hand, I'd have made it a bit less, so that I could be priced in.

I also totally agree with the others comments about a full house. When a board pairs, I'm not worried about quads. If it happens, then I'll say nh and move on. I would be looking at what combos of cards would fit the opp's betting pattern that could be a full house though.

Hope this helps!

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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moving up levels - Thu Feb 09, 2012, 07:09 PM
(#7)
marjoryaaa's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 65
I feel your pain, having been sent on a massive tilt downswing with my bankroll destroyed in similar circumstances. But paired boards are always a danger and many players at this level will call with almost anything e.g. 83c and pick up flush draw and shove with it catching the flush crushing my aces. Or shove with 9 10 off, again with my aces crushed.

Playing at lower levels is an education and for a good while i was happy to break even but now i'm trying to accumulate a bigger bank roll and move on up.

There is i feel less chance of bingo being played at the higher levels but the 1c/2c tables are not the gates of hell but the start of an eduction as already mentioned.

so good luck
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 02:06 AM
(#8)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Going to be blunt:

If your not profitable at 2NL, then there is no logical reason to move up to 10NL. Playing better players because you can't beat the bad ones makes absolutely no sense. Seriously dude, think about it.

Learn to profit from the bad players mistakes at 2NL first before moving up to higher limits.
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:34 PM
(#9)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
Just finished a tournament. I had 88 on the button, about 15BB left, two bigger stacks behind me. Ten people left, so close to the final table. Rather than shoving (maybe a mistake) I raised 2.3BB, and the big stack called. The flop gave me a full house, so I put the rest of my chips in, and the big stack called. The result? The flop gave the big stack quads. LOL
 
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just cashed - Sun Feb 12, 2012, 06:46 AM
(#10)
marjoryaaa's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 65
OK, I've just cashed for 6 dollars in fpp tourny, can i turn this into 12 dollars on the cash games? Any tips would be welcome!
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:00 AM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by marjoryaaa View Post
OK, I've just cashed for 6 dollars in fpp tourny, can i turn this into 12 dollars on the cash games? Any tips would be welcome!
Hello marjoryaaa, 80 dollers is the recommended bankroll for 1c 2c no limit holdem, but 6 dollers not impossible to double to 12 dollers.
If you consider min buyins at 80c and approach it with a double and run approach that may work.
Play the 9 seaters rather than 6 seater allows you more time to wait for a premium hand.
Have you considered the cheap buyin tourneys from as little as 2c,and set the stall out to try min cash every time and build it up that way?.
Hope this helps you.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:33 AM
(#12)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Question: why would you recommend a minimum bankroll of $80 to play the 1c/2c games. There's nothing lower than that, so as far as I see any bankroll will be sufficient to play at those stakes.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:43 AM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Question: why would you recommend a minimum bankroll of $80 to play the 1c/2c games. There's nothing lower than that, so as far as I see any bankroll will be sufficient to play at those stakes.
Hello ov3 the reason is standard 100 buyins to allow for variance, yes you can play with less but if on the occasion you are playing and having a down swing in beats this amount of buyins allows you for that swing.
My main thought would be to play in 10c turbo mtts and grind my way to a bigger br to allow to progress to this.
That way 6 dollars seems a big bankroll compared with only a few buyins at 80c.
 
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double and run - Sun Feb 12, 2012, 10:32 AM
(#14)
marjoryaaa's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 65
im gonna try double and run on 2c tables with a dollar buy in. Thanks for the advice.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 11:43 AM
(#15)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ov3rsight View Post
Question: why would you recommend a minimum bankroll of $80 to play the 1c/2c games. There's nothing lower than that, so as far as I see any bankroll will be sufficient to play at those stakes.
Hi Ov3rsight!

For cash tables, I try to always buy-in for the max and make sure that that buy-in is not more than 10% of my cash table bankroll.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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busted - Sun Feb 12, 2012, 01:28 PM
(#16)
marjoryaaa's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 65
down to less than 2 dollars, haven't played the best
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 06:13 PM
(#17)
marjoryaaa's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 65
busted
 
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Thu Feb 23, 2012, 02:35 PM
(#18)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
1) only play 6 max tables. full ring games are simply no fun. who wants to sit there for two hours and only pick up, on average, one playable hand per orbit and win maybe half a buyin? where i play (american speaking ) people are privy to the idea of playing tighter at full ring tables. whether that stands at ps or not is beyond my current knowledge

2) 2 nl sounds like a drag. where i play there is no 2nl, 5nl is the lowest, and the play is just as atrocious but the pots are much bigger and they actually make me feel like it's worth playing.

3) loosen up a bit preflop. there are so many players that are so predictable that sometimes u gotta take a slight gamble to get the edge up on winning that big pot u crave. once u win one or two big pots in a session, ur confidence goes through the roof. for example, i raised preflop with 89 on the cutoff on a 6 max table, and had one caller. i flopped a straight and value bet each street. the board was 67TAA. my opp. bet 1 dollar and i shoved for 3.65. i assumed he had an ace. he called and i won. for the next 20 hands or so he was so upset he raised an atrocious amount preflop, like 8x+ hand after hand, while pretty much shoving every flop. needless to say he busted out pretty quick. see what im saying? either get ur opps to bleed away chips with their passive play (calling and calling but rarely raising) or pick up pots by getting the tight-wads to fold. these are the ones u bluff. i won a 1.15 pot with 9 hi and two opponents in the pot b/c i played it just like i would AK or KQ. and as ur stack grows, so does ur dominance. therefore...

4) play on tables where people buy-in for near the minimum. they probably have one preflop raise in them and then everything else is a shove (maybe one smallish value bet and then a turn by the shove). all u gotta do is wait for that big hand, while losing the minimum b/c they make it obvious when they have something, ie. they have no leverage in the hand b/c they don't have much room postflop to play with you.

5) sit to the left of big stacks and to the right of big stacks. seriously, do this as much as humanly possible. u will have position on those u should fear more and those that don't mean much have position over u.

6) don't get involved in too many pots with the fella (or female) to ur left. constantly playing posflop out of position is a nightmare for anyone

7) so many people like to limp preflop. try raising it the size of the pot when ur on the button to pick up loose change, or just to change gears and build a big pot with position, hoping u hit something big.

8) minbetting seems to be the big thing these days, though unless somebody is doing it on nearly every hand, everyone has a REASON for doing it--like sandbagging with a monster or just betting a one pair hand as small as possible. learn the reasons for why ur opponents are doing it and exploit it, either by calling down to catch a draw, by raising big enough to scare em away, or raising em with a bigge hoping they are tired or whatnot and call u...or maybe a combination of these!

9) there are so many "going out of business" sales where i play. that is, right before somebody wants to leave, they manage to piss away their entire stacks. get in on the feast and scoop up the raining chips!

10) u should almost always be buying in for the full amount. i mean, i can think of times where i didn't want to (still bought in for at least 75%), but if ur good at poker, u might as well give urself the optimal chance of winning the biggest pots. after all, no matter ur stack size, u always have the option to fold if things don't look good.

11) don't get frustrated. it's not "eff u," it's "eff the dealer." remember that it's gonna take time sometimes. u might just keep missing, but don't lose ur mind and bust on one particularly bad hand. there's always another hand, that's why it's a cash game...and that's also why i've given up tourneys for awhile.
 
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reply - Fri Feb 24, 2012, 03:18 AM
(#19)
sverigelottn's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah309 View Post
I almost lost it tonight, the amount of bad beats I was getting on those tables was ridiculous. AKs on a flop of 865ss. So I Cbet about half the pot. Opp calls (an annoying Ukrainian donk). The turn is my dream card - the J of spades, completing my nut flush. Opp bets small into me, so I 3 bet him back (hoping he'll call). He does (excellent!). The pot now stands at almost 50BBs. Opp checks, so I value bet about half the pot (hoping he'll call). He raises to 100BBs. Very natural for this guy though on the river, so I reraise him allin. The pot is now at 400BBs, and I show my flush. To my dismay he lucked out on quad 8s on the river card. I had to leave the table immediately or my tilt would have known no end...

I'm sure I played it right but these donk wins are driving me insane... Every time I get good cards, I win too little because everyone folds, and other than that donks call me with bad cards only to hit the miracle somewhere down the road. It's nearly ruined my bankroll. The most irritating thing about it is that I know I'm not a bad player, in my mind at the time I'm making the right move.

Needless to say, I'm moving to the 5c/10c tables. My downswing has seemingly flipped now I'm up a level or two (as has the skill and/or predictability of the players). In half an hour I've managed to cut a third off my losses, so I think I'll stay
hi there for couple of months ago i was multitabling 24 tables of 0.01/0.02 and its hard to do profit in that small kind of money cuz its so many beginners that calls u down so that leaves u with not mutch bluffin unless ur willing to pot size bet either way to have the nuts or nothing as i use to do but after couple of months with up and downswings u pretty mutch break even or u burn the profit on hu sng or what ever now im playing some nl 50 and nl 100 games and im doin some nice profits mostly nl50 cap my advice 2 u is that maybe u should go look up some hand historys and question urself if theirs any changes for ur strategy available ,for example if u know its many bad players and many agressors maybe skip some of the suited connectors or some pocket pairs in dif spots against different players cuz u wont get the right price to be able to draw to ur flushes straight and so on or u take a break for awhile and just think about the game u play for a while as long as u do the right decisions u win in the long run
 
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Fri Mar 02, 2012, 04:12 AM
(#20)
ThomasOslo's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 30
We tend to remember the beats, but we forget when we suck out in a hand ourself thou. My limited experience in cash games 1c/2c tells me there are a decent amount of fish, a lot of action seeking players, but also many good grinders.

Even thou the fish sometimes suck out on ya, most of the times they will put a lot of money in your pocket. I played against a such fish just now and i noticed he played very aggressive with any 2 cards. He was deep stack, even above the max limit, around 300 bb, because he had sucked out in a few hands.

I was patient and waited for some decent cards i could crush him with. I was lucky and got 2 good hands before someone else was able to pick up his entire stack.

See the hands here

Last edited by ThomasOslo; Fri Mar 02, 2012 at 04:20 AM..
 

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