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You Choose the ACTION, Hand #2 (Pre Flop decision #1)

View Poll Results: What do we do with JcTc here?
1) FOLD 3 21.43%
2) CALL 10 71.43%
3) RAISE small, making it $40 to $60 to go 0 0%
4) RAISE medium, making it $61 to $90 to go 0 0%
5) RAISE large, making it $91 to $125 to go 0 0%
6) OVER RAISE HUGE, making it $126 to All In to go 0 0%
7) BLANK (This is for my use in tracking voting, please do not select this.) 1 7.14%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

Old
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You Choose the ACTION, Hand #2 (Pre Flop decision #1) - Sat Feb 11, 2012, 12:02 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi all,

Welcome to Hand #2 of You Choose the ACTION!

We returned from the bath room, and we immediately notice the Dentist has taken a hit to his stack. There is also a new guy in our old seat, a Mid 30's type, decently dressed, but not necessarily over dressed. We do not recognize him at all. He is stacking chips, and smiling.

You say to the table, "Anything good happen while I was gone?"

The Dentist glares at you, points across the table, and replies, "Yeah! Mr. Donkey Luck Machine sits down, and immediately sucks out on my AA with KK. One tip ____, watch out, that guy NEVER folds a hand!"

You think to yourself, "Good to know", but also realize that the Dentist is really not good enough himself to cause you to rely on his info much. You say, "Thanks".

You do hope the fireworks have started, and smile.

As you sit down in your new seat, Reg 2 whispers to you, 'He (meaning new guy) does fold occasionally, like maybe half his hands. But once he is in, he NEVER folds before the river!" and smiles at you. Now you really think, "good to know!"...

The dealer tosses the cards out, and the action begins.

Mid 30's guy in seat 8 open limps, The New guy calls. Dentist angrily tosses a raise out in front of him, making it $20 to go. Reg 1 mucks his hand, and action is on you...

You look quickly to your left, and see that Reg 2 is looking at his cards.
He allows his cards to snap back on to the table, moves his hands to rest on the rail, and does not cap his cards with a chip.

Mid 20's girl in SB looks at her cards, pushes them slightly forward (not all the way into the muck though), and leans back in her chair. She fumbles in her purse, and brings out her phone.

The Kid in the BB is staring intently at you, and you do not think he has looked at his cards yet, as he usually waits until the action gets to him.

You look down at your hand and see Jc Tc...

Graphic Showing Stack sizes and action in front of us:


What do you do?

1) FOLD
2) CALL
3) RAISE small, making it $40 to $60 to go
4) RAISE medium, making it $61 to $90 to go
5) RAISE large, making it $91 to $125 to go
6) OVER RAISE HUGE, making it $126 to All In to go
7) BLANK (This is for my use in tracking voting, please do not select this.)

Why?

For anyone jsut starting with our exercise now, here are links re-capping everything we know at the table:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...the-lead-in%29 <= The "Lead in" Post, where we get some table info, and vote on which game we will select.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-pre-flop-1%29 <= Post where we are seated, have our initial reads, and make our first pre flop decision.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8Pre-Flop-2%29 <= Post where we continue action pre flop, and have to make another decision before we see the cards.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Flop-1%29 <= Our flop decision post.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Turn-1%29 <= Our Turn decision, and resolution.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...rim-Decision-1. <= Discussion regarding our Seat change decision.

That should help everyone get "up to speed" in this new hand!

We will move on to the next street in about 2 days, so get your votes in!

Thanks!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sat Feb 11, 2012 at 12:08 PM..
 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 12:56 PM
(#2)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
well, if what the reg said is true, it looks like we can call and take a multiway flop IP.
not sure what reg 2's (button) standard MO is regarding looking early or protecting his cards, but i think this is a good enough spec hand to try to see a flop at 4X and evaluate what to do afterwards.
J10s is imo a sweet spec hand to see a multiway flop with, and if we hit, tilty tilterson (dentist) might just punt a boatload of chips at us, so i call hoping to get at least one more going to the flop.

Last edited by mtnestegg; Sun Feb 12, 2012 at 11:40 AM..
 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:13 PM
(#3)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
I (voted) fold.
The hand isn't anything to get excited about, we have two limps and a raise (half-tilt-looking, barely credible raise, but a raise), 3 people to act... plus the limpers, any of whom might just be waiting for the dental raise.

We have $0 in the pot, we already got some free info we'd be glad to verify and improve, me I get out of the way and look closely at the action from behind lowered lids.

We flop a str8flush, fine, just watching this is certainly worth the money we're investing.
 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:44 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I opt to fold is JT good enough to see a two way flop. Although we suspect it will be a 3 way or maybe 4 way.

Seems like a standard range and could easily be Ax or Kx i think i want some more reads at my new level before i start splashing the chips around above my level.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 07:58 PM
(#5)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
I would opt to call here as essentially we could have the BTN as it appears the Reg2 might muck his hand. Can we take it as a tell if someone doesn't protect their cards usually they may muck their hand? Even if the Reg 2 decides to call we still have good position.

It appears that mid 20's girl is going to muck her hand but the kid is most probably going to call if we are to go by the hands we have seen so far.

If we call the pot will be $57 which gives good pot odds to the opps acting behind us to call, creating a big multiway pot which is favourable for our hand and we will have positional advantage through out the hand. If we catch a decent flop, we should be able to build a nice pot, so I thinks its worth risking $20 to see the flop.

Cheers.
 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 08:02 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,798
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I voted to call. Speculative hand and it looks like I'll be in position. JTs isn't one that I would want to get into a preflop raising war with, but could hold value in position...... especially if the dentist is tilting.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 09:07 PM
(#7)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I voted call.

It is a decent enough starting hand at a cheap enough price in a reasonable pot that may grow with extra calls, and I don't really anticipate any big raises behind. If everybody else folds I am OK with paying this call to see the flop. If there are calls behind I am even happier. If there is a raise, depending on the action, I might have to go away.

But we aren't giving up this light are we? We have equity and we have angles.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
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Wish we were closing the action - Sat Feb 11, 2012, 11:53 PM
(#8)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadeyz View Post
If we call the pot will be $57 which gives good pot odds to the opps acting behind us to call, creating a big multiway pot which is favourable for our hand and we will have positional advantage through out the hand. If we catch a decent flop, we should be able to build a nice pot, so I thinks its worth risking $20 to see the flop.

Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I voted to call. Speculative hand and it looks like I'll be in position. JTs isn't one that I would want to get into a preflop raising war with, but could hold value in position...... especially if the dentist is tilting.

John (JWK24)
Bad 'relative position'.

Observation:
Seems like ‘reg #2’ in the BTN, may be a little antsy (maybe a little tilty); he looked at his cards out of turn, and didn’t place a card protector on them (possible ‘tell’ that’s he’s folding). Ms. 20 something in the SB doesn’t seem to like her hand either (by moving them forward near the muck line). The dentist didn’t make one of his outrageous PFR’s, could be he just wants to take control of the hand, and also he likes playing big pots.

Our Hand:
JTs plays well ‘deep stacked’ in multi-way hands (wish I had bought in with a deeper stack). As it is, I expect the ‘new guy’ to continue with this pot; reg #2 says, he likes to stick to pots, once he’s in. If my read is right, the pot will have an SPR of 7 (if not lower). It’s possible to get full value from both the dentist and the new guy, which is a good reason to get involved with a spec hand. On the flip side, 5 players are behind us, yet to act. I expect 2 of the 5 to be folding (as per my reads). Out of the remaining 3, the 2 limpers may join (without 3betting), but ‘Sparky’ in the BB, is the BIG unknown. If we call, are we comfortable getting more money into this pot, if someone 3bets? My plan is, that if I decide to ‘call’ and get involved, I’m folding if ‘Sparky’ (or someone else) 3bets.

Our Position:
If we decide to continue with the hand, we will probably have the best ‘absolute position’ (seems like BTN may be folding), but our ‘relative position’ is the worst, because we are seated to the left of the PFR. Unfortunately we will be the 1st to act when the dentist cbets (which is almost a guarantee). Knowing that we are going to be facing the ‘commitment threshold’ on the flop (and acting 1st to an assumed cbet), might as well have a plan NOW. We have an 11% chance of catching 2 clubs on the flop, are we willing to make a ‘conditional commitment’ call (acting 1st), with the 4th nut flush, in a multi-way pot? Catching two pair is also risky; by making two pair, someone might have a straight draw. What’s worse is that the 3rd card on the flop (A; K; Q; 9; 8; 7), could have hit them for a straight. If we get involved, we may be stacking off with 2nd best hand. If we were closing the betting, and in the best ‘relative position’, this is the type of hand I would ‘spec’ with.

Good thing we thought things out! Too many bad things are working against our ‘spot’ and our ‘hand’. I’m folding!
.
 
Old
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 09:52 AM
(#9)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
2 call
 
Old
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 11:45 AM
(#10)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
@ king_spadez "wishing i had bought in a deeper stack"
we maxed our BI at 100 BB

Last edited by mtnestegg; Sun Feb 12, 2012 at 07:24 PM..
 
Old
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 10:56 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
I call, I think this is a great spot personally.

The investment is 4bb. We have a nice implied odds drawing hand. We will have the button as that players has given us a tell they're folding. The SB is folding as well, and the BB is unlikely to raise (3-betting in low stakes live games is actually much rarer than it is online anyway). Both limpers will likely call, and we'll act last post flop.

And as for those implied odds. The 2nd limper is a guy who we've just been told chases way too light and can't find his fold button before the river. And then there's the dentist... someone who we know when he tilts he's prone to punting off a couple stacks.

Quote:
The Dentist glares at you, points across the table, and replies, "Yeah! Mr. Donkey Luck Machine sits down, and immediately sucks out on my AA with KK..........Dentist angrily tosses a raise out in front of him, making it $20 to go.
idk, looks a little tilty to me.

King_spades made a nice point about relative position, and it's relevant since it would be common for people to check to the raiser. But it's not nearly a big enough issue to deter me away from what I rate to be a very favorable speculation spot.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 11:59 PM
(#12)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
I vote call, no need to bloat the pot with a speculative hand. I think this hand is good enough to call a standard raise, but would fold to further aggression. The cheaper I can get to the flop the better I like it.
 
Old
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 12:31 AM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
In the cut off I'm calling as dentist looks like hes on a tilt,I do not want to raise in this spot with two limper's and 3 to follow,all though the button and the bb looked like they were going to fold.
The bb had not looked at his cards so was a worry and the two limper's one e know has played kk may of spotted the dentist tilt and playing a limp trap.
I'm reevaluating the situation when the people to act after me had made their plays.
 
Old
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 04:02 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
The group has voted overwhelmingly for CALL...

ACTION:

We look across the table at all the stacks, and consider the value of speculating with our premium drawing hand.

We review the info we have, and realize that the kid is our only unknown, mainly because we do not think he has actually seen his cards yet.

From what we gather about him though, we believe he will likely call pretty weakly, as he seems to be desperately attempting to get the buy in back that he lost earlier. If he looks at his cards and sees a premium hand, he is likely to raise (we think), but if he does not have a solid hand he is probably far more likely to flat along. Far more often than not he will only have a marginally playable hand, rather than a 3bet hand in what is shaping up to be a multi-way pot.

We also realize that the Mid 30's guy in seat 8 has been playing a pretty passive game, and he also seems to have pretty loose open standards. We really have seen no aggression from him that would make us think he is the type to limp/raise, so we have to think it is pretty safe to speculate versus him as well.

While we are not sure about the new guy in seat 9, the info we have been given seems to indicate he too is a pretty loose pre flop player, without a lot of aggression. We are un-clear about his actual entry standards though, but if we flop pretty well we could see a nice fat pot building for us.

All in all, we figure that we can see a flop quite often here by calling, and the threat of being raised off our speculative hand is pretty minimal with these players.

We elect to call the raise to $20, and slide our chips into the pot.

As expected, Reg 2 on the button mucks his hand., followed quickly by Mid 20's girl in the SB mucking as well.

The Kid in the BB looks at his cards, and screws his face up into a quizzical expression. He appears to be ready to muck his hand, as he starts to move them forward slightly, but before he releases his cards he seems to change his mind. He looks at the chips stacks, and the money in the pot, and he decides to call the $20 as well.

Mid 30's guy in seat 8 mucks his hand pretty quickly, and sits back in his seat.

The mid 30's guy in seat 9 looks around the table quickly, seems to think for a few seconds, and then he too calls the $20.

We take the flop 4 way, with $87 in the pot.

Flop comes: 9c Kc 7d.



We will now move on to the next street.

Please see the thread titled: "You Choose the ACTION Hand #2 (The Flop #1).

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Mon Feb 13, 2012 at 09:21 AM..
 

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