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Rehash! VPP Prize Levels for Skill Leagues

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Rehash! VPP Prize Levels for Skill Leagues - Sat Feb 11, 2012, 12:13 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Ok - I know this is an old topic but I felt I wanted to look at it again in the wake of the changes to the cash game VPP earnings formula.

Now that we are a substantial way into February and most of those planning to play seriously in the Leagues this month will have played a game or more, I have looked at January and February Premier League tables to compare.

What concerns me most is the very large jump from 20+VPPs to 150+VPPs, with the higher level being very difficult to make for the micro-stakes players here. I know that PS/PSO have a business need to generate rake, and that for a winning/break even player VPPs should not have a cash cost, but as so many have said they do take a lot of time to collect if you are playing micro stakes.

In January, of 1,420 qualified players that entered the Premier League tournaments only 61% had the 150+VPPs required for the higher prize levels.

In February, of the 1,365 players to have played so far it is very similar, with only 62% having the 150+VPPs.

I have to admit that there are a reasonable number of players getting the 150+VPPs, more than I anticipated, so although in the past I have asked for this to be reduced to a more manageable level, of say 75+ or 100+VPPs, which would definitely be preferable, perhaps it could be looked at from a different angle.

If the qualification for the Premier League criteria was raised, say to 100+ or 125+VPPs, a lot more of the players who qualified would be playing more often and more seriously for the prizes, and those players who prefer to remain in the Open Skill League would not be forced to play for small prizes or simply sit out a month in the Premier League.

The two prize levels in the Premier League could also be more evenly distributed, as the first prize level, if it was 100+VPPs could be set at 2/3rds of the 150+VPPs level. This would give a very good incentive to all qualifiers. It would also answer the criticism that PSO is cheapening the promotion by advertising a large Prize Pool but often failing to pay out a large portion, especially of the big top prizes, due to the different prize levels being so far apart.

The other factor is that in the >20+VPPs but less than 150+VPPs, players could have just crept into that bracket with 21VPPs or have toiled to get to 150 but just missed. This disparity of players with 21 or 149 VPPs being treated the same would even out dramatically.

I know the powers that be have stated they are not planning to make any changes to the Leagues at present, and I am still working on a more wholesale alternative structure for the long term, but I think there is definitely scope for improvement in this area that should not prove too difficult to implement.

Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sat Feb 11, 2012 at 12:16 PM..
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 12:33 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, here's mine

Increase the 20 VPP's to 50 VPP's
Increase the 150 to 300

VPP's should NOT be the priority of a player, it should be to learn to be winning player first. Once you DO become a winning player, the VPP's will follow.

Look at Panicky's goal thread and look at mine, we both achieved way over 3,000 VPP's while being winning players. So why lower the VPP criteria when it's doable?

Most people think VPP's which is wrong, THINK winning first

 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:07 PM
(#3)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
well what the heck...hiccup,

one of the rules of business...hiccup, someone once told me,

more traffic flow = more customers

take away the flow, expect less business,

yes l'm short at times...but need to do some drinkin

cheers
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:31 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, here's mine

Increase the 20 VPP's to 50 VPP's
Increase the 150 to 300

VPP's should NOT be the priority of a player, it should be to learn to be winning player first. Once you DO become a winning player, the VPP's will follow.

Look at Panicky's goal thread and look at mine, we both achieved way over 3,000 VPP's while being winning players. So why lower the VPP criteria when it's doable?

Most people think VPP's which is wrong, THINK winning first


Hi Sandtrap,

Thanks for your response Sandtrap. Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion - nice to hear yours.

Your main point that VPPs should not be the priority I absolutely agree with. I think you and Panicky have both shown this very well, and your level of success is something all at PSO should be aiming for.

However, I think you have probably both outgrown the PSO Skill Leagues, if you do still play there it is probably not your main objective. I know there are Goldstars-Supernovas playing in the Premier League, so probably many players that have no trouble getting the required VPPs. I have reluctantly accepted that the 150+VPP level is here to stay, and am more focused on the large difference of 20-150 (7.5 x as many) that I believe gives this overly skewed effect to the league prize payouts, and to how many therefore have a real incentive to contnue to play. I would like to see all the qualifiers for the Premier League getting more involved, rather than electing to sit out or play a very limited amount.

I only have the publicly available data, so have to make several assumptions. If about 40% of qualifiers for the Premier League cannot make the 150+VPPs, I sincerely doubt that many are making them easily and going on like yourself & Panicky to make a much higher number. I just scraped them by a fraction last month. I play mainly $1.50 or below sitngos and $0.01/$0.02 cash tables. I think this is fairly typical of PSO 'trainees' without a large bankroll. At that level, whether or not you are a winning player, it takes a lot of time to get to 150+VPPs.

So for me, I think increasing the lower level from 20+VPPs to 50 or 100 is a good idea, but increasing the upper limit would not work at present. PSO must surely by now have data on the actual levels of VPPs their regularly qualifying players over the past 6 months are attaining. If there are, say, 500-800 people in the Premier League who regularly have over 300 VPPs there might be a case for increasing the upper level, but my assumption is that this is a much smaller number.

I also don't like the large multiplier, from 20 to 150 or even from 50 to 300 in your proposal. If people are to play against each other in the same league I think they should be much closer together, no more than double, so say 75/150 or 100/150 with the prizes paid reflecting this same ratio.

Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:54 PM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by effsea View Post
well what the heck...hiccup,

one of the rules of business...hiccup, someone once told me,

more traffic flow = more customers

take away the flow, expect less business,

yes l'm short at times...but need to do some drinkin

cheers
Hiya Effer!

Might be misinterpreting this, but I think I know what you are saying. The difficulty from this side of the tables is knowing what numbers/turnover PSO/PS have/want out of this Promo. Are they looking for many more micro players or trying to increase the numbers at higher stakes? It's not just volume it's also price. Most businesses either do cheap volume or concentrate on limited numbers of high value. PS seems to have the best of both worlds, as it has a range of prices for everybody and the capability to do the volume at the cheap end and provide big stakes for the high rollers. I would guess the PSO Leagues are aimed at the low price/volume end, as after all they are freerolls.

Presumably the whole PSO League promotion is also designed to increase traffic at PSO and at the PS tables. It would be great to know how much traffic/play they actually get from this promo.

For instance, there are a few players who exploit the Open Skill League structure for regular prizes, including the 'big' top ten prizes, who rarely if ever play the Premier League. In general they play a minimal amount of cash games and just make sure they get 20+VPPs for when they bink the big OSL prize.

Well, fair play and good luck to them - they have to put in the time commitment - that is exactly what I would be doing in their position (and did attempt in the past before the PL came along). But....I'm not sure that is really a good thing for the 'business' of PSO/PS or for the PSO community. It doesn't necessarily boost traffic at PSO or rake at PS.

I do think making the OSL less exploitable and moving the money to the PL was a good idea, but I think it needs more refinement.

Hiccup.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 02:01 PM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Ed, I do understand your point

I was just exaggerating the vpp requirement so that people would forget about the vpp's and concentrate on learning how to play.

Playing SnG's at $1.50, you need to play about 200 games a month to achieve 150 VPP's and at $0.50, you need to play over 540 games. If you're a losing player, that means you'll probably lose $200 - $300 per month to achieve the required VPP's. Why would anyone think of VPP's if they aren't winning players?

PSO wants players to spend money, but if players are SMART enough, they would learn to play first. PSO is giving out $30,000 to the Premier League, so players need to spend lots and lots of money for them to accumulate rake to be able to dish out that kind of money.

So there's no need to fall into their trap, first all should learn to play, than take advantage of their promotion

As for us outgrowing this place, NEVER. I use this place to learn, I play in the league when I need to practice something I've learned. (instead of Zinga poker...lol). I might comeback when PSO Network listen's to us, like limiting the number of games one can play, so that it's fair for all. (such as the working class)

 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:57 AM
(#7)
AlUnders's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 41
BronzeStar
Im completely confused about them anyways. Do u have to get them the month before or during the month? Says on my league bit on the side 150, Level 20 and on the leaderboard 20??
 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi AlUnders!

The vpp's need to be earned in the month before. The vpp's that show on the leaderboards is for what was earned last month... and next month's will show what is earned this month. To be eligible to be promoted to the Premier League, make sure that you earn 20 VPP the month that you qualify, in order to be promoted.

The addition on the side of the page is something new and being worked on for bugs.
Please use the numbers on the leaderboards and sorry for the inconvenience with the 150 on the right side... it's a bug that we know of and are working on.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Feb 16, 2012, 09:46 AM
(#9)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
I absolutely agree with sandtrap. I've been playing micro stakes 1c/2c for 3 days now with a max of 3 tables. I have only a total of 5,528 hands played and 59.73 VPP's. Focus on money first and the VPP's should grow along with your bankroll.
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 09:30 AM
(#10)
sleepyolman's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 389
WOW, 60 VPPs in 3 days @ .01-.02 stakes ! That's amazing as i can only get about 1-2 VPPs per hour per table, I'd like to know your secret. Are U winning $$ ? The cash tables seem too risky for a micro BR .
I've been getting my VPPs at the $1.50 fifty-50s playing about 6-8 daily with each VPP costing me about $.10 or $15.00 total to get the 150VPPs needed to play upper level so with the $20 i usually win from Premier League, I can make the 150 needed.
sleepy

Quote:
Originally Posted by sydhollow97 View Post
I absolutely agree with sandtrap. I've been playing micro stakes 1c/2c for 3 days now with a max of 3 tables. I have only a total of 5,528 hands played and 59.73 VPP's. Focus on money first and the VPP's should grow along with your bankroll.

Last edited by sleepyolman; Mon Mar 12, 2012 at 09:38 AM..
 
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Sun Apr 01, 2012, 02:32 PM
(#11)
PLaws62's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 329
great point ed i think you have done some work and i agree,i know sandtrap is a well repsected player ,as in the old league i have played against sand,but i work for a living ,and being a micro player have voiced my opinion a few times and i guess canadians well a brit living in canada ,dont count and so i dont reload anymore ,i am doing the one thing i can do and that is not putting money into a system i have lost faith in,i was in prem and did not reach 20 vpps ,bad mistake maybe but i am not paying to be ignored ,maybe when the U.S. gets back then i wonder if rules will change
 

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