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the big $5.50 -slowplay backfires

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the big $5.50 -slowplay backfires - Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:27 PM
(#1)
milehigh0874's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 256
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

i really muffed this one ,what are your thoughts?
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
First question is, what are your thoughts? Why did you call pre, why did you call the flop, what prior info did you have on this player, etc.? Very hard to give you a solid analysis with only the hand history. I can say that your line does make sense under certain sets of circumstances, but we need more info to have an idea on what the optimal line might have been.

Considering that you only had one pair, I'm glad to see that you didn't raise at any point, though. I was expecting to see you raise one pair at some point thinking it was for value. That's usually a mistake, so at least you saved chips by not doing that.

BTW, to anybody who wants to analyse this hand, keep this in mind: Hero starts the hand with 20bb, not 35bb. He's not all that deep.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Feb 11, 2012 at 04:08 PM..
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi milehigh0874!

What reads do you have on the SB here? Were they playing every hand? Were they betting every street before this? Reads would really help in this situation.

If I'm in the BB with AKs and the SB completes, depending on how the opp was playing, I could very easily either make a std raise or check here.
If the opp was playing passive, then I'm more tempted to raise. The reason for it is that if I raise preflop, the opp will most likely check to me. If I hit the flop I can then make a value bet, if not, then I get to see the turn for free by checking behind.
If the opp was betting every street regardless, then I'd opt to check here, because I'd be putting almost all the chips in on the flop that I would use raising preflop.
Either way, for about the same amount of chips, I'd get to see at least four cards to try and hit and A, K or both.

I like the calls on the turn and river. The opp is doing the value betting for us and by raising and re-opening the betting, it would be opening the door for the opp to 3-bet bluff us off the hand or to a shove for a value if the opp hits two pair... and Ax is well within their range. If the opp did not bet, then I would make a value bet, but since the opp did it and my hand does have showdown value, I like calling here. Calling gives an opportunity to make a significant addition to my chip stack, without risking my tourney life when I'm not sure that I have the best hand.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 05:21 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
I must be missing something then PP because I see 13,592 in chips with 400 for the big blind so that would be 13,592/400 = 33.98,so 34bb. Or if one prefers (which I do after the antes come out) his M is just a shade under 13.

I agree though that without specific reads it's a dicey proposition to try and give an ideal line here but generally I do have a couple things I'll go with here.

One is I don't like the check on pre-flop. We have a Grade 1 hand here,suited no less,and we're letting the opp spit on our blind by limping in. We are very likely to be way ahead here and we'll have position after the flop if he calls. I'm taxing him if he wants to see a flop. Period. It's not just for this hand but for after to---telling the table that if you think this is a soft bb to be limped or raised at will,guess again. So I'm 4x betting here.

This also will let you get a general idea of what type of hand range you are up against if he does call. So I just don't like the check behind pre-flop at all.

I like the call on the flop raise as we're getting a little better than 4-1 on our money to call here. And since we did let him get away with that pre-flop limp (again I wouldn't have...) there are plenty of hands in his range that he may have gotten just a small piece of this flop with,which means he has a lot of vulnerable hands.

The turn flat I just plain hate. If our case card turns and we aren't willing to bet it why the Hell are we calling the flop to begin with? This is too passive IMO. Could he have 2 pair with a hand like 87,A8 or A7 here? Yeah,he COULD. And that's OUR fault for letting him limp a hand like that for free with AKs in our hand to begin with. Now we've hit our card and we're going to let him peel yet another free card without finding out where we are in the hand? No sir,not me. This is playing not to lose instead of playing to win IMO. And in MTT's I just don't see that as an optimal approach.

If he has the goods here and KO's us on the turn with a hand like A8.A7 or 87 then so be it. Lesson learned about making a soft play like that with the check behind pre-flop. But once we decide to continue in the hand after blanking the flop we simply CANNOT take a passive line for a 3rd street in a row in my opinon. This is far to coordinated a board for that. We have never,NOT ONCE,done anything to range this guy in this hand. He could have an OESD,a pair but now with a shot at a runner runner flush,a pair alone,who knows?

It's time to find out and if we ARE ahead in this hand it's time to start acting like it.

Totally fine with flatting on the river. We're getting better than 3-1 on the call and we have showdown value for sure. We also have to acknowledge that we have very likely humped the pooch on this hand and therefore can't be comfortable raising. So the flat is optimal IMO.

That's my 2 cents.
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 09:50 PM
(#5)
milehigh0874's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 256
at this point i had no real valid information on the player , whilst being suited helps it doesnt really change my thought process pre flop ak is still just ak , i feel i wasnt aggressive enough though and perhaps a preflop raise may have me allowed to push him out when the ace hit,but with no read on him he can just come straight over the top of any raise i make and give me a very tough decision to make which, %90 of the time im gonna fold withouth a made hand
 
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Sat Feb 11, 2012, 10:26 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
I must be missing something then PP
Yeah, that was vague of me to say with no explanation. I think I'd just woken up.

Since antes are dead money, exactly the same as blinds (just situated on a different part of the table), you can just add two-thirds of the antes to the big blind to give you a more accurate depiction of how many big blinds your stack has. It's a mental tool I use to adjust accordingly when there are antes in play. In this case, the hero has only ~20 big blinds if you were to take the antes and divide them between the blinds. Since the antes here are so big, I thought it would be interesting to mention, because the difference between 35bb and 20bb can really change how you approach a hand.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 01:57 AM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
OK PP got ya. That's why I said just go with M then in my post. Same difference really as both methods do the same thing and account for the antes being in play now.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:06 AM
(#8)
milehigh0874's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 256
you will notice if you actually look i started because i was bb and would not fold ak unless it was to a huge raise
 

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