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I need help because I think I'm somehow getting worse the more I play.

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I need help because I think I'm somehow getting worse the more I play. - Sun Feb 12, 2012, 12:56 PM
(#1)
C-mac687's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
BronzeStar
Okay guys, here's my story:

Played a decent amount of poker years ago and was an average player. About 9 months ago decdied to get back into it with a small deposit of about $50.00.

Did some reading and decided 6 max SnG's were the right game for me due to time ect...

Then read a lot of material on that game and felt I was ready to play.

Started out the gates hotter then a 2 dollar pistal. Within in no time had my bankroll up to 120.00.

Almost finished ITM everytime.

That followed by a slight rough patch. Then was up and down followed by a good run. This seem to be pattern for the next bunch of months. Then hit a few bad runs followed by okay ones. Now in a huge gad one. Bankroll is now down to 35.00 and I have hit the worst run of the year so far. I can't seem to win no matter what. Tried also switching games to PL wilth some success but also had some bad beats. I also find PL a bit scarey as your playing for actual cash. (not to mention can be a bit boring)

Anyway, at this point, I'm willing to step back, and completly start over. The problem is I don't know where to start.

Not sure if I should just keep trying pot limit. Try and improve my NL game or what.

It just frustrating because I started out so hot. I can't figure out for the life of me what changed in my game. People have suggested dropping my buy in level which I did. The weird thing about that was I did worse. I chalked it up to people playing more loose because the stakes aren't as high, more rookie players getting lucky playing -EV hands ect...

The last tournament was the straw that broke the camel's back. Made it to the bubble and was the chip leader with one player close and the other two way behind. Was dead carded very bad and we all know when the blinds are that high, don't want to play marginal hands. Anyway, other two players pretty much caught up for various reason. I was the the big blind, got called and hit two pair. I shoved and got called on a pair. Villian hits the river to make two pair higher then mine to knock me out.

So because of this I finally threw in the towel and said, there must be a way to get better. There are people that make money at this. I'm looking for advice from someone on here who is a profitable player.

S.O.S......S.O.S......S.O.S......S.O.S.....
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:03 PM
(#2)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hello cmac you may not want to hear this from me but seems as no one else is answering you I will try.
Of late I have managed to flat line, you can check on pokerlabs, I have done this by stepping back.
Playing in the skill league and free rolls,and gone away from practicing and back to my original game.
To me it sounds like you need to step back and ease off slightly,try some free play chips or free chip home games it calmed me down a lot.
Also think where you went wrong,did you change your game practicing LAG or small ball for example.
Did all the bad beats and downswing you suffered make you afraid to call?.
Mainly stay focused, concentrate more and take your time with decisions.
Also I find its good to mix it and play cash tables now and again.
For now until you find your winning ways consider everyone a pro, and play accordingly,
that to helps and stops some mistakes.
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 02:32 PM
(#3)
RaBBiiTGiiRL's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 972
My suggestion is to you to keep playing the limit/game you prefer, we all have variance, its part of poker.. head up and keep playing your game!

Ive been there, where i lost no matter what i played, its really frustrating. But it will turn.. Improve your game by reading (articles, books, hand posts ect.) and watch some videos and stick with the game you like, you will adventually find your way back!

Poker changes all the time, the poker we know isnt as it was few years ago, we all learn new moves and so on everyday, And you will find your own play at the end. This is what keep poker so interesting

So again, head up and keep playing your game!
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 05:27 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
C-mac the thing is,and I'm saying this having never played them,but when I look at the structure of those 6 max 12 mans's you play---this is the type of game that the regs that play them at a profit are doing so through mass play and part of that profit is going to come in the rakeback from the volume.

What I'm saying is these look like the type of structure that even the regs who are very good at them are probably rolling with a +5-10% ROI,so it's a squeezing out the profits "in the margins" if you will that is what separates them from everyone else. They only have to be better than you on average 1 time more in every 20 games played to get the edge they need. THAT is what you're up against in those games and if there IS a discernible skill edge between you and the top 10% of the players you're up against in those games then that edge is only going to accumulate against your roll over time and games played. It will be incremental,as I think you were seeing after your initial success,but it will be real.

That's why I suggested in another thread (the can an average player win one) that you may want to look around at some other structures.

It's not that you're necessarily an average,or even a below average player. You can be a good one in the games you were playing. But in a structure like that the demarcation point between the top players.i.e. the long term winners and the next level,the players who are close but non cigar to turning a profit in them,which seems to be where you are stuck---that line is going to be a very,very rigid one. You need to find a way to fix some leaks if you want to continue in those games. It's really that simple. So study your hands and look to see where the players that do win consistently in that game are exploiting other players,including you,where you aren't.

OR as I said,you can look at other structures and try them out. Maybe try some 45 and 90 man SNG's instead. These are very good BR builders for many players here and at $35.00 you're not in bad shape to start a grind on them.

Here are a couple of advantages that you will see to these.

1: There is a much greater diversity in skill levels in a field this size compared to what you have been playing. And at micro levels most of the field is going to fall into the mediocre to bad to just plain terrible range. That means many more players that even a player with enough skill to be considered "average" can exploit.

2: You've been playing 12 man,2 table 6 max SNG's. You should have a BIG advantage at the bubble over most of the players you're going to run into in these games from the very first one you load up,just having seen so many more bubbles than most of them. Just understand that some considerations are different here (you'll probably see a little more "turtling" to try and ladder climb to a cash on the bubbles in these for instance...) and you should be fine.

Understand going in that there IS going to be more variance in these,bigger fields equal more variance,pretty simple. But if you DO find that you have a knack for these then your skill edge will also be more pronounced over more players. THAT equals profit over the long run.

Read up on these,look at some of the great video selections on them and maybe even go for the Cowboy's Challenge (Hey,even playing the 25c one would,if you beat the challenge,get you almost halfway back to your original BR and get you back some confidence,which seems to be a sticking point for you at the moment...).

I know that you look at these and think "time suck" compared to the 12 mans. But think about it this way---how much of a time suck of just basically spinning your wheels to be stuck in the mud for the last few months been?

NOT saying that these are absolutely the games for you. We don't know that yet. But they could be and that could open up a whole different path for you.

Good luck in whatever you decide and don't get so down on yourself.

Losing only 30% of a deposit over 9 months without needing to reload puts you ahead of probably 80% of online players. Now see if you can figure out a path to jump over another 10% and you'll be on your way.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Feb 12, 2012 at 05:32 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:38 PM
(#5)
C-mac687's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
BronzeStar
Thanks Moxie once again. (and to the others that responded)

I really enjoy and appreciate your feed back.

Before I play another game, I'm going to start from scratch. Going to read a whole bunch. Even stuff for beginners again. Other than rules.

Also going to take your advice and try some other structures. I was attracted to the 12 man because my logic was "the pay off might be smaller but with less people, finishing ITM should be more attainable"

I'll try and keep you posted on my development.

Thanks a bunch guys.
 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:34 AM
(#6)
C-mac687's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
BronzeStar
Hey Moxie,
Do you ever play 6 max games?

I just read an article about how the name of the game is to conserve your chip stack pretty much until you get to heads up. Folllowed this article and played again. What happened finally finished in 2nd. Got lucky on one hand because a maniac kept rasing me large so I got pissed and shoved A5, he called and I beat his K10.

He actually made his way back into the tourney and he was the one I ended up playing heads up with and lost.

thought it was interesting that I tried this strategy and it seemed to work. Having that said, it was just one tourney but have you heard this stategy for 6 max?

The danger is your going in low stacked...but once you get ITM then you can open up your call range.

Last edited by C-mac687; Mon Feb 13, 2012 at 01:38 AM..
 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 07:47 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I've gone through similar experiences, and I'm sure most have. About a year ago I ran a $200 deposit up to over $1k and then ran it back down below $0, all playing 50NL 6-max cash games. It's shocking how steep my climb was, and kind of shocking how steep the fall was, too. I think my biggest problem at the time was a bankroll management system that couldn't tolerate much variance, but I think my biggest mistake overall since I started playing poker was adjusting my game too quickly based on short-term results.

I think it's great that you're going back to studying; it can only help your game. Just focus on getting better, and don't allow yourself to become convinced that you're bad just because you lose. It's pretty hard to actually get worse at poker if you're studying the game; the biggest thing that will make you lose money faster than normal is bad luck, and that's temporary. Don't let bad results shake your confidence, because so long as you study the game rigorously, you're going to be a winning player.
 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:34 PM
(#8)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
When you are in a learning phase (which we all are at times) your game frequently takes two or three steps backwards before moving forward again. I have experienced this with every major improvement in my game as well with some of the smaller ones. In these instances the more I play the worse I got until it came together and the tide rapidly turned.

In poker as in the life standing still is really getting behind. Being a life long learner is a positive trait in poker and in life.
 
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Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:54 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-mac687 View Post
Hey Moxie,
Do you ever play 6 max games?

I just read an article about how the name of the game is to conserve your chip stack pretty much until you get to heads up. Folllowed this article and played again. What happened finally finished in 2nd. Got lucky on one hand because a maniac kept rasing me large so I got pissed and shoved A5, he called and I beat his K10.

He actually made his way back into the tourney and he was the one I ended up playing heads up with and lost.

thought it was interesting that I tried this strategy and it seemed to work. Having that said, it was just one tourney but have you heard this stategy for 6 max?

The danger is your going in low stacked...but once you get ITM then you can open up your call range.

Nah,my games were 45 and 90 man SNG's and the .10 ($50 added) and .25 ($100 added) MTT's,plus grinding the Skill League. Played roughly 19K hands on rings (2NL and .02/.04 FLHE,FR and 6 max in both---I sucked...and .10/.20 5 card draw,won good there---Langolier said I had a knack for 1970's poker games apparently---).

Plus FPP tourneys and the WR 2's. At the end I started playing $1.11 50/50 STT's (think $1.50 is lowest now). These were also butter soft IMO.

My average buy-in for games tracked on OPR is/was only $0.22 per game but between the League games,rings,freebies and the OPR tracked games (+52% ROI) I did manage to cash out a little less than $1600 in 10 months without ever depositing a dime. $1000 of that from binking 2nd in the League in August 2010,so weigh the numbers against that. I think I did pretty good but the League bink WAS a big part of my success.

That's where I'll start when Americans can play on here again and once I get volume in and manage to get my number of tables to where I want it (8 or more I'm hoping),I'll move up. Not and never was interested in the getting the low to middle X amount so move up path as I want bigger numbers behind me at each level I beat (hence I KNOW I beat it rather than maybe hit some run good) and this is all just a video game that pays off to me anyway,so as long as it's fun it's all good.

And up until we were so rudely interrupted (eff you DOJ...) I was having a gas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I've gone through similar experiences, and I'm sure most have. About a year ago I ran a $200 deposit up to over $1k and then ran it back down below $0, all playing 50NL 6-max cash games. It's shocking how steep my climb was, and kind of shocking how steep the fall was, too. I think my biggest problem at the time was a bankroll management system that couldn't tolerate much variance, but I think my biggest mistake overall since I started playing poker was adjusting my game too quickly based on short-term results.

I think it's great that you're going back to studying; it can only help your game. Just focus on getting better, and don't allow yourself to become convinced that you're bad just because you lose. It's pretty hard to actually get worse at poker if you're studying the game; the biggest thing that will make you lose money faster than normal is bad luck, and that's temporary. Don't let bad results shake your confidence, because so long as you study the game rigorously, you're going to be a winning player.


THIS is great advice from Panicky here c-mac. No surprise Count Grindula...

Look,for you to be able to run for 9 months in a game that's bound to be fairly populated with regs and only leak 15% of your starting BR...like I said that's already pretty strong so stop beating yourself up and doubting yourself. As like as not you're a couple tweaks here and there from being able to beat those games pretty soundly as like I said earlier your loss rate to have only bled 15% of your BR most be so small per game entered that it's miniscule. That translates to the difference between you and the regs who turn a profit is probably something like ONCE in every 20 games played they find a way to get home where you failed to.

And that is fixable.

So make looking at your histories in those games part of your studies. And watch some of the players you know were good in those games. Compare moves they make that are different for what you would have probably done and see how they work (or don't in some cases..) for them.

Study,study,study.
 
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Fri Feb 17, 2012, 02:02 AM
(#10)
FurryWallz's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 52
BronzeStar
this advice from everyone is remarkable. I love this forum. Great Post here. Great advice. Thanks.
 

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