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Being out of position sucks!!!

Being out of position sucks!!! - Thu Feb 16, 2012, 08:47 PM
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
Missed much valua here but the problem is when should I raise since if I do it means flush...

I knew he had A 10 but could I take more value from it if for me he was a tag.

I thought at least the one with the straight would bet but maybe if I bet on the river he would have called?

Fri Feb 17, 2012, 01:49 AM
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
The river is where you missed the value bet, if they were still calling after the flop, it's not likely both would be folding to a half to 2/3 pot bet.

Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:07 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Hi again Etienne.

Yup, I agree, you lost value here. I'm not sure how much, but you probably lost somewhere around $3 or so I'd guess...Let's look:

I like your flop check oop to be honest.

This under rep's your nut hands and allows a lot of action to develop on a highly coordinated flop that fits right into the play zone for most ranges. I do see a possibility with the action behind your check that you might have gotten some extra value in here though, by check raising and taking the betting lead. A C/R here will probably not result in ALL your opponents folding on this type of board (although some may fold), and with the lead, you can elect to feed your chips in how you choose; it then falls to THEM to decide if you are truly on a hand your strong action says you are on.

Do not get me wrong Etienne, I am not saying you "must" do this, and I totally get why you check/call in hopes of keeping EVERYONE around. I only present the option above as something to think about when oop with a very strong hand. Taking the lead early leaves it up to YOU when your chips get in, instead of leaving that up to your opponents; you may lose some "customers", but the ones who stay probably have enough in their hand(s) to pay off your entire stack.

On this turn I do not really think you can lead out very well though, nor check/raise profitably.
The action has dried up so much that trying a C/R now is probably just going to get you folds in my opinion, and check/calling at least leaves open the SLIGHT chance someone may put something in for you on the river.

The river is your last chance to get value in, and I really think you owe it to yourself to at least try a token value bet. Something like $3 into this pretty bloated pot stands a really strong chance of being called by 1 pair hands, and the fact that the LP guy is so short AND has raised 2 streets, may mean he will view that as "weak" and stack off to your flush. Even if both players fold though, at least you TRIED.

By not trying, you left it to them to bluff the river to add value for you, and after their weak action on the turn, this was probably a pretty long shot.

So about the only clear spot you may have lost value is on the river in my opinion (and as Joy said already). I doubt seriously had you jammed either of the opp's would have called, but a token value bet may have gotten called by at least 1 of these opp's. Even if it hadn't, hey you tried, right?

Hope it helps.


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 03:41 AM..
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:21 AM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, weird sort of spot. On the flop, I think there's a strong argument for betting out rather large or checking to trap. I feel like you accomplish more by betting, because I think what happened on the flop after you checked was pretty unusual. There was a bet, a raise, and somehow all three villains stayed in the hand. I think you were very fortunate to have that happen.

Weird spot on the turn, because now if you bet, you're repping the flush and will probably get everyone to fold unless someone else has two spades. Since you have the ace of spades, there isn't even the possibility that someone else might be on a nut flush draw. If you check, though, I think you're seldom going to get much money out of it. I won't suggest any action for the turn, but keep in mind that if anyone happens to have two pair or a set, you can still be outdrawn, so that's another argument to raise at some point.

On the river, since it does look like everyone has slowed down and nobody wants to commit much money to the pot, I agree that you should lead out and just hope for the best.

Cool hand.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:31 AM
r0ck.carver's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 201
agree with joy lost value by checking the riv ..keep bet nearer 1/2 than 2/3 pot and I think you get at least 1 caller here.... possible your raise after the turn could have been a little bigger to say 1.70 rather than 1.20 as I don't see either folding for the extra .50 cents....this creates a bigger pot and forces them to protect money already in as well as increasing pot odds to call IMO comments jwk?

nh ...good check post flop helps rep steal attempt by tp on the turn raise ...r0ck
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 04:17 AM
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
i dont think a cr ai on this flop with that action is all bad, but if im checking on this flop, after flopping the nuts with a redraw to a royal flush, I am definitely checkraising

If I lead out here I'm just trying to get the pot as big as I can with whoever will play with me, given that I have flopped the nuts/ with a royal flush redraw and all ace high flush draws (crushing all other flush draws)

Last edited by rule110; Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 04:21 AM..
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 07:29 AM
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
Cheers guys I have a habit of being too passive or trap too much and at times I miss value!!!

I bet or 3$ or so would have been called here.

Fri Feb 17, 2012, 08:12 AM
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
first off, your right. being oop sucks
i'm thinking maybe if you led out the river for 3-5$ even single pairs might call even after your passive play to that point, thinking you were on a missed draw that couldn't win w/o betting. two pair+ type hands for sure could call, but would just check down on a board with str8 and flush possibilities. tough to know being oop. great posting hand.

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