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You choose the ACTION, Interim Decision #2...

View Poll Results: How does it effect our play to have Time taken, rather than rake?
1) Not make any adjustments, cost is cost, and we should do the same things. 6 75.00%
2) Play a little tighter, because $14 is less than we pay if we win 5 or 6 big pots per hour raked. 0 0%
3) Play a little looser, because we have to pay rake whether we win or lose. 0 0%
4) Play a little more passively, because we do not want to lose big pots AND pay $14 per hour. 0 0%
5) Play a little more aggro, because we want to WIN bigger pots to pay off our hourly cost. 0 0%
6) Combination of 2 and 5. 0 0%
7) Combination of 2 and 4. 0 0%
8) Combination of 3 and 4. 0 0%
9) Combination of 3 and 5. 1 12.50%
10) Blank (for my use to track, please do not select) 1 12.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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You choose the ACTION, Interim Decision #2... - Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:57 AM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Interim Decision #2, Time Charge vs. Rake, and how much to toke?

Hi again everyone!

We just scooped a MONSTER pot that last hand didn't we? It was GREAT!

That is what poker is all about...draggin' monster pots, hangin' with our bitchin' poker friends, buying a sick house in Thailand, partying all night long so that we wake up naked in an inflatable raft in the pool at the Bellagio, covered in $100 bills (anyone else like The Micros? )...

Well playing live is also about sitting long hours in the same seat, in your same sweaty clothes, probably next to other people who have been sitting too long in THEIR sweaty clothes, waiting...waiting...waiting for just the right situation to get your stack in good. Huge pots like the one we just took down are few and far between...

Poker is also a SERVICE industry, and that cute petite dealer across the way may have a couple of kids and an un-employed husband to feed. Her smile, politness, professionalism, and skill at what she does deserves some sort of monetary recognition, doesn't it? She has treated us well, has done her job efficiently and correctly, and she has dealt without error at a rate slightly above the norm that we might expect at the table.

My personal feeling is that an amount equal to the SB is usually sufficent to toke. I will tend to do this for any dealer, in any pot I rake in, as even BAD dealers have to eat too.

For GOOD dealers though, I usually find an "excuse" to put a little extra into their toke box (especially if they keep their own tokes). I am much less likely to do this though if all dealers pool tokes, simply because "rewarding" a good dealer will result in rewarding the bad ones too. If I have an exceptionally skilled dealer (one who gets the cards out fast and runs a smooth efficient shift), one who is especially pleasant to sit with, or one who has handled a difficult table decision well, it is usually pretty easy to toss 'em their "normal" $2 chip in a 2/5 game, and then flip a $5 to 'em while saying, "This is because you are goooooood!" once or maybe twice per half hour shift.

We won't vote on this, because we have something more imortant to look at now (I think it is more important at least), but I think as toking bears on our overall profitability, it is worth discussing a bit...

Should we toke her?

What should we toke her?

Should it matter what we toke if the pot is large, or if the pot is small?

WHY should we toke her, if it will hurt our profitability?

Please post your thoughts so we can all think about it.

But now on to the other interim decision, the one that has more of an impact on us!
(although please note, based on discussion about the above matter, our stack size will see a very minor effect.)

I am sure some of you really sharp tacks have noticed that none of our pots have been raked. How does this Casino make MONEY???

Well...they take a "time charge".

A Time Charge is a seat cost that is payable every time the dealer changes (usually each half hour), or every hour (every other dealer shift change).

In the case of this venue, all games below 2/5 are standard rake: 10% up to a $4 max, with an additional $1 drop for the bad beat Jackpot.
2/5 NLHE and above (they have a 5/10 nd/or a 10/20 NLHE game approximately twice per month) have a time charge instead, and do not qualify for the bad beat jackpot.

For us, Seat charge is $7 per half hour. We must have sat JUST after the last time charge was taken, so we have yet to pay. We cannot skip out though by leaving now, as the new dealer is approaching...

The question for us is:

How does it effect our play to have Time taken, rather than rake?

Do you think we should:

1) Not make any adjustments, cost is cost, and we should do the same things.
2) Play a little tighter, because $14 is less than we might pay if we win 5 or 6 big pots per hour at a raked table.
3) Play a little looser, because we have to pay rake whether we win or lose.
4) Play a little more passively, because we do not want to lose big pots AND pay $14 per hour.
5) Play a little more aggro, because we want to WIN bigger pots to pay off our hourly cost.
6) Combination of 2 and 5.
7) Combination of 2 and 4.
8) combination of 3 and 4.
9) Combination of 3 and 5.
10) Blank (for my use to track, please do not select)

Please discuss why you vote as you do.

Thanks!

-JDean

P.S.

For anyone just starting with our exercise now, here are links re-capping everything we know at the table, through our 1st and 2nd hands:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...the-lead-in%29 <= The "Lead in" Post, where we get some table info, and vote on which game we will select. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-pre-flop-1%29 <= Post where we are seated, have our initial reads, and make our first pre flop decision. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8Pre-Flop-2%29 <= Post where we continue action pre flop, and have to make another decision before we see the cards. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Flop-1%29 <= Our flop decision post. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Turn-1%29 <= Our Turn decision, and resolution. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...rim-Decision-1. <= Discussion regarding our Seat change decision. Hand 1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-decision-1%29 <= Pre Flop decision #1, Hand 2.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Flop-1%29 <= Flop decision, Hand 2.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...8The-Turn-1%29 <= Turn decision and resolution, Hand 2.

That should help everyone get "up to speed" in the new hand coming up!


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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 01:26 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Lemme throw something out for clarification.

Let's assume:
all tables are 9-handed,
every table plays 30 pots per hour, and
the average pot rakes half of the $4 cap, or $2.

Then, at a low-stakes game, the casino takes $2 * 30 = $60 per hour from each table (rake only).

At a higher-stakes game, the casino takes $7 * 9 = $63 per half hour or $63 * 2 = $126 per hour.

This means that the rake actually goes up drastically from the raked to the time charged tables? Is that supposed to be the case?

Assuming I play the $500NL table with a winrate of 20bb/100 hands (I'm assuming that's a good live winrate), the rake at that particular table would eat up ~45% of my ROI.

If I understand correctly, my adjustment would be to not play at this casino. Maybe I would if I was rolled for 1000NL or 2000NL (assuming the table charge is the same).

Not sure if my calcs are correct, but my interpretation of the info provided tells me that the rake is unreasonable.
 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:10 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Your numbers for the lower games are a bit off Panicky.

The rake is 10% up to a max of $4.

So most all pots in 1/2 that are opened for a raise and a call, then which go past the flop, will almost certainly see max rake. At a 3/6 FLHE table, the play tends to be so loose and passive you will almost NEVER see a hand that isn't max rake (only $40 must be in the pot to hit max rake at either game).

This means the increase in over rake from the standard here to a time charge is actually relatively small.

30 Hands per hour x $3.50 Avg rake = ~$122.50 per hour for the house raked.

Your $126 per hour timed is of course spot on.

When you factor in the additional $1 raked per pot for the bad beat jackpot, this means the cost for the lower games would tend to be slightly HIGHER (depending on dynamic of course), as that is an additional $30 per hour taken from the game.


As for your profitability...

20BB/100 hands live equates to around 6.0 BB/HR (before rake/time and tokes).
That too is pretty "standard" for a winning live player.

You are paying $14 per hour, or a bit under 3 BB/HR in time, plus around 2BB more per hour in tokes. You CAN eek out a very small profit versus the time charge at that win rate...

But realistically, to maintain profitability, you probably have to win more than 20BB/100 hands to be in good shape. If I net 2BB/HR clear in 2/5, I am actually quite happy with that.

BUT...

How does this all effect our thinking in a timed game versus a raked game?


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Old
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:26 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Fold my trash like the wind and tell everyone to hurry it up?

I suppose since profits are coming out of my stack one way or another (not out of my winnings), that might mean it's more profitable to LAG it up. I'm tired though, so maybe that's wrong.
 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:28 AM
(#5)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
-1

since we are playing our best poker at all times anyway we shouldn't need to adjust.

we could do a runner before every dealer change, but they might get suspicious eventually.

just cut down on the hollywooding and maybe enourage others to do the same if they habitually do it, especially preflop,

i had 1 guy the other day who needed reminding virtually every hand to post blinds, antes and all sorts.

Last edited by Django66; Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM..
 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:25 PM
(#6)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
i;ve never adjusted my play based on rake. if the rake doesn't suit me, i'd find another venue.
and yes we SHOULD toke the dealer. here in America, dealers basically live off these tips, not their wage.
and i'd toke the dealer 7-9$ here, i usually do toke a bit more for really big pots too. since she's about to leave and handled everything that happened quickly and professionally, a nice tip for you. nice job. thnx!
ps. lil bit of useless info stored in the pea here..... T I P S is an acronym for "to insure prompt service" i don't know why that stuck in the old memory banks, but .......

Last edited by mtnestegg; Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 02:39 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:38 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
the only adjustment I'd make is that I may play a bit quicker, to maybe get an extra hand or 2 in per hour if I'm being charged by time. I'd already want to have this planned out before I even took a seat at the table.

With the seat charge being $7 and with the way the dealer handled everything, considering we won a big pot, I'd toke $9-10.... please let me know if this is in line or not, as I'm not used to playing NL in casinos.. but will upgrade to playing it in the future.


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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:55 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
And I think everywhere outside of Vegas mostly the rake cap is more than $4, it's usually $5-$6, so the numbers add up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Django66 View Post
we could do a runner before every dealer change, but they might get suspicious eventually.
If you mean walking away from the table, that won't matter. You pay time every half hour whether you're in the seat or not. Even if you go to dinner and are gone for an hour (typically you can have your seat held for ~ 1 hour 15 minutes in most venues just leaving your chips on the table). Essentially the time charge is a rental charge, you're renting the seat for the next 30 minutes. If you have chips on the table locking up the seat, they will take the time charge from your stack whether you're sitting there or not.

I generally don't adjust my game between time and rake much, but the general strategic adjustments that time dictates would be to play more loose-aggressive than normal... in raked pots the winner of each pot essentially pays the rake for that pot. Loose players win more total pots because they are involved in so many more, so the math is pretty simple. If you win 10 pots in a couple hours and I win 3, you will have been dipped for more rake than I was. In a time charge game, we will have paid the same exact amount, so you are not "penalized" by winning more pots. The other adjustment is to not chop if you think you have an edge on the other player in the blinds, since there's no rake to overcome in playing, but that's not a topic in this thread.

Dave


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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:09 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I want to be playing my A game, and as such I plan to make ajustments based on the other players not the rake or lack of. I voted for no adjustments.

regarding tokes. Its a service industry i have only played once live in Rama and tokes are shared so i toked the sb for each pot (that was not a blind steal)


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:33 PM
(#10)
Django66's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
If you mean walking away from the table, that won't matter. You pay time every half hour whether you're in the seat or not. Even if you go to dinner and are gone for an hour (typically you can have your seat held for ~ 1 hour 15 minutes in most venues just leaving your chips on the table). Essentially the time charge is a rental charge, you're renting the seat for the next 30 minutes. If you have chips on the table locking up the seat, they will take the time charge from your stack whether you're sitting there or not.
i guess i forgot the smiley, it wasn't really a recommendation, here's a belated .


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I generally don't adjust my game between time and rake much, but the general strategic adjustments that time dictates would be to play more loose-aggressive than normal...Dave
if everybody does that, wouldn't it mean you'd rather have to tighten up a little ?

shouldn't adjustments to the game be made regarless of time/rake considerations ?
 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 07:26 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Very interesting discussions thus far folks!

Here is my take on it...

In a time game we really do not need to make any adjustments to our game. The time drop will be taken from us as consistently as the sun rises, and our judgement about the profit potential of a game should entirely be based upon our skill advantage over opponents. If we do not feel we have enough of an advantage to over come the time drop, we simply should not play.

Obviously, at this table, with the info we have and from what we have seen, we can reasonably feel we have enough of an advantage over overcome the drop!

If we do have the ability to effectively adjust, we CAN think about playing a bit looser pre flop standards (as TheLangolier and Panicky Poker suggest). Doing this gets us into MORE situations where we may exercise our advantage on opponents in a timed game. That equates to (possibly) more pots won in a given timed period, and since each pot won is ours totally; this is a good thing in a time drop game. We really, REALLY have to have a good handle on our own skills though, as the more 'basic" our skills are, the more likely we are to benefit by staying with basic type plays.

We should also try to play a little faster if we can, as the quicker we act, the more hands we will see within a given period of time that we are paying for our seat. More hands = more potential profit if we have an advantage over opponents.

We should be slightly more willing to make "crying calls" on the river in timed games. In raked games, each individual "win" is raked, so each pot won is slightly SMALLER. With that amount still in the pot in a timed game, it is slightly more profitable to make a crying call.

We should be slightly more willing to bet thin value in timed games. By doing so we will tend to increase the amount in each pot that we win. As we will only get so many pots in a given half hour we might win, maximizing the amount we win on those is an important factor in overcoming the time drop. Related to this is...

We should not let pots go "orphan" without taking a stab as often in timed games. In a raked game, it can possibly be BETTER to check a pot down without taking a stab with weak value, as either the rake take for a try would be prohibitively LARGE (10% of the pot taken if we are under $40 and "win" immediately), or betting thin value may cause the pot to grow (and the rake to grow).

TheLangolier brought up another good one...do not "chop" the blinds as often in a timed game. A chop is often a standard agreement in raked games, where if it folds to a blind vs. blind situation, both blinds just take back their post and move to the next hand. This makes "sense" in a raked game since the pot will tend to be very small (usually), and the maximum 10% will be taken. Without that high relative charge in a time drop game, there is no reaosn why a "small" pot is not a good one to win too. Related to this...

We should probably try to blind steal in late postion a bit more in timed games. Again, having 1 blind call your steal then "give up" on the flop results in a very small pot with the max of 10% taken in a raked game. We have paid significantly MORE for the risk we took in trying to steal in a raked game, and without that same risk cost in a time drop game, we should probably be slightly more willing to try.

Can you think of any OTHER adjsutments we might look at for timed games over raked games?

I will be looking to have a new hand up in aobut 6 or 7 hours, so get ready for hand #3!!!!

-JDean


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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:04 PM
(#12)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I voted no change for a very simple reason - I had no idea how to adjust or why I should. After reading this discussion I'm starting to have a better idea.

 
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Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:47 PM
(#13)
EmotiveKiwi's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 140
I voted to not make changes. I will speed up my own play a bit but as far as hand strategy I want to play my style and adjust to opponent reads not the cost of playing per 30mins.

I agree that due to the opponents we have here that we could be fairly profitable anyway. If the table were tight then i would adjust to that and play a bit more loose/aggressive.

As far as the toke goes all depends on the hand and size of the pot won. Generally i would think the amount of the SB or if it was a big pot won then maybe 1.5x the SB. For small pots/uncontested pots or steals then i'm probably not giving anything up.

 
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Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:30 AM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Django66 View Post
if everybody does that, wouldn't it mean you'd rather have to tighten up a little ?
If everybody does that.


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