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Overplayed or just one of those things?

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Overplayed or just one of those things? - Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:25 AM
(#1)
darkmajik365's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 191
Here is my bust out hand from the $1.10 3k


Not many reads on my opponents as i had only been at this table for 15 hands, in these 15 hands the button had stats of 53/7 no 3bets and the big blind 67/0. Reads on small blind hand selection were that he liked any A-x and Broadway cards and would play these even for raises. The Button also likes to limp with Ax hands and Broadway cards from any position, after some self analysis I did see that the button choose to limp AQ behind an UTG limper which i did not factor in at the time of my shove. Table dynamics: In the last 8 hands i had been dealt QQ and AK and had raised over limpers in the same way as above taking down both pots uncontested which I felt could have opened up the range of the Button to 3bet me more lightly, that being said he did not necessarily have to 3bet he most likely would have just called lighter. When it folded back round to me I choose to shove (not in love with the play) to isolate the big blind and if I was called by the button was hopeful i was not dominated but would be flipping with a hand that i was extremely confident had many of its outs blocked by the holding of the big blind. Having seen the AQ limp by the button when reviewing the tournament I think perhaps a fold was the right line to take here as AK with blocked outs was the best scenario i could have hoped for and alot of the time i am dominated, would have been better if i had a few more rotations of reads on the button opponent, that being said with his stack size being so large he may be prone to gambling with smaller pairs than JJ although in general opponents tend to over bet jam these hands rather than 2 times 3bet.

Furthermore i would like some advice on raise sizing over limpers in MTT's. Was 3x plus 2bb for the 2 limpers a good sizing or to large? My standard open at this blind level would have been 2.2-2.5x so should i be opening 4.5x and not 5, what about for just 1 limper? any advice would be appreciated as i feel this is a leak in my game that may need addressing.
 
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Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:59 AM
(#2)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi mate,

preflop % roughly

JJ-50%

Ak-37%

kj-13%

On this occasion I would opt to fold my PP Jacks.
2 Limper's
JJ raises
AK reraise
KJ call

JJ became a weak hand in that spot,You also had good fold equity.
Maybe a flat call for the flop,but then any over card on the board,
you would have to fold anyway.

Conclusion snap fold wait for a better spot,

Advice on raising over limper's depends on the table dynamics.

Example- 4 limper's ,you are sitting with KK on the BB,
These limper's though are pure beginners,
So no matter what you raise they will probably call.

Example 2-same scenario but this time all players are NIT,
A standard 3x would probably make them fold.


So when making a decision on how much to bet, that comes down to the opponent.

Hope this helps just my verdict on it.
 
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Tue Feb 21, 2012, 11:17 AM
(#3)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
preflop % roughly
JJ-50%
Ak-37%
kj-13%
You can't base your decision on this since you don't know their cards.

I would probably just call the 3bet and see the flop texture here. Yes, the opps are kinda loose (although it's a small sample) but you're probably only going to get called by overcards if you shove for a flip, and even worse with two opponents. These guys will sometime show up with TT but that's only a small part of his range (not counting the BB who will call with any two, it seems like). Flipping (or worse) when you're this deep is not worth it.

....

Last edited by Feskprins; Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM.. Reason: Goats are hot
 
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Tue Feb 21, 2012, 11:40 AM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feskprins View Post
You can't base your decision on this since you don't know their cards.

I would probably just call the 3bet and see the flop texture here. Yes, the opps are kinda loose (although it's a small sample) but you're probably only going to get called by overcards if you shove for a flip, and even worse with two opponents. These guys will sometime show up with TT but that's only a small part of his range (not counting the BB who will call with any two, it seems like). Flipping (or worse) when you're this deep is not worth it.

....
Hi feskprins, no my reason would be because two limpers, I raise then get reraised, the opp was not worried about the limpers or my raise, so for that reason with equity to fold I would in that spot.
And I put the maths up for just a general idea of how strong or weak the hand was.
 
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Tue Feb 21, 2012, 01:54 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi darkmajik365!

Before going thru the hand, here is what I try to use for my bet sizing. I try to always use a std open +1BB for each limper. Ex: if 2 limpers and my std at this level is to 3BB, then I'll raise to 5BB. If 1 limper and my std for this level is to 2.5BB, then I'll raise to 3.5BB.
I always try to keep this standard, as it helps to conceal my hand since I'm making the same raise regardless of the cards I'm holding (as long as the hand warrants a raise).

In this hand, with two limpers and my normaly raise here being to 3BB (I try to use a raise to 3BB as std for any level below 100/200, then switch to 2.5BB), I'll raise to 600.
The reads on the opps here does help. Both opps will play a large number of hands, but just because they'll get involved often, they haven't been 3-betting much. Their calling range is going to be wider than normal, but since they are not 3-betting hands often, their 3-bet range can be much tighter than their calling range. I also note that the button did NOT make a min-raise, they specifically raised to 2X our bet amount. The BB calls the 3-bet before me, which does fall into their pattern of calling (67/0).
With two opps in the hand that are known to play pairs and broadway cards (what has been shown down), if I put a 20% range into pokerstove for each, while JJ is slightly ahead, it is NOT the favorite to win the hand. Since the 3-bettor hasn't done so yet, their range could actually be much smaller than this, which would make my equity with JJ much less.
If I'm looking to get into a race with JJ, I'd much rather do it against one opp, where I'm the favorite in the hand, than 2 opps, where I'm going to lose over 1/2 of them.
Due to this and being out of position to the 3-bettor, I'm going to flat here and re-evaluate after the flop. I don't want to be putting my tourney life on the line when I know I'm not the favorite. Plus, even if I have to fold on the flop, I still have a very playable stack left (30BB).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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