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How to beat downswing.

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How to beat downswing. - Wed Feb 22, 2012, 04:44 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hello all, I have started this topic to help people overcome downswing. What is downswing?.
Downswing is when your BR <bankroll> starts to drop with a consecutive row of defeats.

What causes downswing?.

There are many reasons for a downswing, examples are tilt, lack of form,altering your game,bad beats,run of bad cards,not been good to start with and many more.

So how do we make this right?. The first step as always is to identify the problem.
Without not knowing what the problem is, then the downswing will continue.

Example, have you been practicing new tricks?, this is a common cause for downswing,
eventually though you will learn your new tricks and your game will settle. However, practice
on free play and then the downswing will not occur.

Time played, playing game after game 24/7 will cause a downswing, tiredness kills,
remember that,the brain needs a rest.

Trying to fix something that is not broke, another common mistake if you were or are a winning player, no need to adjust or change your game because the virtual felt is not running good for you, stick to your plan and game it will come good eventually.

Excepting you are not as good as you thought you were, main mistake people make, except this and look for help, do not feel stupid or anything else ,just ask,learn,get some one to rail you if need be.

Losing attitude, taking a losing attitude to the table will in fact make you loose, the oh stuff it shove I will only loose anyway attitude, this is a killer to a downswing.

So ok we have self examined our own game and concluded why we have such a downswing.
How do we rectify this?.

Firstly I would suggest to sort out the reason why ,whether it be a skill obstruction or the mind attitude.

Secondly, to fix this I found stop trying to win, yes that is the aim of the game you may argue is to win, however if you do not see the problem and fix it you will not win.
I suggest to you, you try to stay even, running flat line on a graph to steady your game.

Once you have balanced out your game, then from there you can just step up slightly, I emphasis slightly, and then you will start to see results.

If you are failing at one structure , example 6man sngs, change your format and find a better suited format for you.

And the main thing I can think off is to clear your mind of conspiracy theories, I guarantee alot of you think this regardless of what you say, this will drive you nuts and force you to loose.

Ok hope this helps any questions I will try to answer,feel free ask away if I am unable to answer, I'm sure some one else will.

Thanks for reading, good luck.

Last edited by holdemace486; Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 04:48 AM.. Reason: typo
 
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Wed Feb 22, 2012, 08:25 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey, holdemace ... nice paragraphing there!!

I guess you too have had some experience with downswings, eh?

Interesting list of things to look over when in a downswing! I was thinking of spend the night reviewing hands instead of playing STT's, so this is a cool bunch of things to look out for

I'm definitely in a downswing, but I recognized a couple of things from your list already that I'm doing that are probably making things worse, especially this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post

Losing attitude, taking a losing attitude to the table will in fact make you loose, the oh stuff it shove I will only loose anyway attitude, this is a killer to a downswing.


This hand just happened a couple of minutes ago, but I've had this leak for a while ... where I know I'm beat, but because the range of hands that I put them on had me way ahead pre-flop ... like when it happens hand after hand ... after a while, for some reason I can't fold any more

It just might be worthwhile to stop playing until I figure that one out, eh?

Hope your games are going well - thx for the tips ... they're helpful!!
 
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Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:10 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hey sam lol I was screaming A9 like I think you were,to be honest though this is the ultimate way of learning especially at micros and low levels. Calling to know you are right is sometimes worth more than the buyin.
To me sam It looks like you have it, the read I mean, which is the game. When you are happy that you have got the reads down to knowing, then it is time to win ,how long have you been doing this for now sam?,be carefull you can not brake the habbit,thats what got me untill I came on here and broke it.
Hope this helps mate, remember winning is not just about winning the hand, by folding a hand you can win a hand.
I know you will unerstand this good luck mate.
 
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Thu Feb 23, 2012, 08:26 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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lol ... it was super obvious that they had the 9, eh?

Which does bring up that question ... why then make the call? Because yeah, if I had just folded, there still would have been enough chips to get something going. Win by folding, like you said

Downswings are such a funny thing ... maybe it might be interesting to explore this hand and try to find an answer. Because everything post-flop was kind of questionable :/

Okay, so ... hmmm ... maybe I'll start by listing stuff I liked about how I played the hand:

1. The 3bet
- I wanted to increase the size of the pot
- and make speculators pay to see the flop
- without chasing everybody out of the pot
- but was hoping at least one of them would fold, which didn't happen :/

2. The c-bet post-flop
- out of position makes everything harder
- and the board was paired
- but I had an over-pair
- and didn't want to give Arags a chance at a seeing another free card and drawing out


Now stuff I didn't like about how I played my hand:

1. The c-bet post-flop
- while it was too early in the game to have developed player reads,
- player one in the pot limp-called a 3bet, and player two in the pot min-raise-called a 3bet - but yet I eliminated a 9 from their range
- my expectation in c-betting, with the size it was, was to hopefully get Ax to fold, and lesser pairs and Qx to call - I didn't plan for a reraise

2. The 4bet shove
- so the 'unexpected' happened, and I could call, fold, or reraise/shove - like, why would anybody reraise with anything except 9x, 99, Q9, QQ, AA (or possibly KK) ... but yet I chose the shove???


???

I don't know ...

I guess, in downswings all those 'truths' about poker get distorted - big hands aren't winning a majority of the time, most of the time when you're getting it in good the hands aren't holding up. And when the downswing has dragged on for a prolonged period of time, it can be hard to remember what it was like when things were any different. But that shaken faith - I think this hand shows that it's a real game killer. If I had just folded, like yeah I'd have lost 1/3 of my stack, but blinds were still just 20/10 ... there was plenty of time to build back a healthy stack.

Maybe in a prolonged downswing, the doubt can start building up so slowly over time, that you might not even realize that there might be other chances?

I think that's it.

So maybe the antidote is to try and expand one's view to include the longer-term, like try to remember back to the times when the odds actually held up and you still believed you had a shot at winning?

I took a look at my graph for $1.50 STT's and I'm doing okay over the long-term ... maybe it's too early to be losing faith?

Like whatever you can find to restore your faith ... if you can find something, it's worth putting in the time to find it maybe?

I don't know ... work in progress I guess

Sam


PS With regards to curiosity calling down to showdown - you know what I found out accidentally since I'm so chatty and can't stop telling everybody about my hands, is that if you share your hole cards when you make what you feel is a tough laydown, a good like 50-75% of the time, people will reciprocate and share info in return, either by showing their hole cards, or in chat. I know there's the school of thought that says that you should never show your hole cards because it gives away too much info, but when we're still learning, sometimes maybe it can be a lot cheaper to give away info, than to pay that price in chips? I feel like it's pretty good value

Also, sometimes if you talk in chat before you make your decision, I've noticed that every time the player I was up against started answering back in chat, that 100% of the time they're holding the absolute nuts. Anybody else found that too?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 08:31 PM..
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:27 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hello Sam, looking back at the previous quote by you Sam, look what you said, this was a major clue, do not doubt your reads even at this early stage.
You quoted was hoping to get the opp fold AX?.
You had all ready got the situation read if you think about it, calling hands like that is tilt Sam.
When you stop beleiving and think the opp is bluffing, do you think the opp would of raised pre without an ace?, do you think the opp would of reraised without the 9?.
You know you had plenty off chips left to continue, never forget about fold equity.
I think you have got it Sam and are starting to see it, just stop calling when you know you are rigth just to prove a point to yourself.
And about showing cards Sam, at low stakes especially I show the big laydown, I show the nuts, this way the fishes beleive you rather than not.
However I never show if theres good players on the table unless im showing bluffs lol.
I would also never show at higher stakes.

Beleive in your self Sam, ask yourself one question and I hope this helps, are you getting your money in good when the flop as come,and there is two cards to come?.
Even if you are wrong sometimes to fold, thats better than been knocked out, especially in tourney at an early stage. Think to your self If I do fold, then how much I have left , then if I double up what I have left, push to the crunch ask your self do I need to.
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 06:02 AM
(#6)
XDcchrisXD's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 66
nice post holdemace, I think it is exactly the right attitude when having a downswing to take a step back and think if there is anything you're doing wrong, or if you're playing the right type of game.

I kind of have the same issues that TrustySam has, I like to call even though deep down I strongly suspect I'm beat. I also play hands that aren't really that strong too often.
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 07:04 AM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Yes chris, I think calling to know is an issue that helps the downswing, it is when we play half hearted and just playing for the heck of it. That is the reason for this, Im tilty today,suffered some beats so have just come off for a bit. These beats though I know I could of avoided by playing tighter, half hearted today a bit tired after a long open league last night finished 2nd should of won but got too tired.
These are reasons for loosing, and downswing,if I continue to play at the moment with not feeling tip top shape, I all ready feel like I will loose.
So may do a few fpps freerolls or some free play now today instead of busting my BR.
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:02 AM
(#8)
sable60's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 36
Downswings....is that what you call it. I just came out of one a whole week try to finish after the bubble in the pso skill league out with KK,AA,QQ,AK, you name it l lost. Out the first 1000 players OUTTTTT.
Stopped playing for a day or two, started again throw out my QQ watched the hand to see if l would win, it did knew the downswing was over didn't change my game plan and had a good finish (573). Sometime you just have to sit back take a break from poker and refresh your brain.
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:14 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
You quoted was hoping to get the opp fold AX?.
do you think the opp would of reraised without the 9?
I was out of position, so my continuation bet came before the reraise

Huge congrats on coming in 2nd in the Open League!! 2nd out of 10,000's amazing holdem!! Well done!!
 
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Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:24 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Here's more on that idea of reframing things in terms of the longer-term big picture:

Here's my graph for my STT's during February:



And KK the last couple of times I've played:



And how it fits into the longer-term bigger picture of all my STT's played to date ... like I guess it's just a snapshot in time:




Like I guess in the short-term it can get really frustrating when people who make calls they probably shouldn't be making then hit their long-shots hand after hand after hand. The minute I saw the reraise, I stopped thinking about the hand, and started to think about my downswing and reflect on that - right in the middle of the hand! Thinking stuff like omg, they had 3 outs at best, unless they made a trip with their kicker ... what were the odds? Like omg, like why is this happening? When will it end? fml, etc LOL

Like yeah chris, I'm sure we're not alone in maybe not always being willing to make the tough laydowns for whatever reason

So ... and this is kind of hard to appreciate in the moment, but maybe it's the truth - like maybe if there aren't people at the table who are that loose, then all you'd ever pick up from KK is the blinds, and then how do you win over the long-term?

I like your idea of taking a break Sable - longer than the one I already did, like long enough to make sure this time that I'm not going to start thinking about the deeper implications of my bad run in the middle of a hand, even if it is a bad beat in the making ... there's no point of indulging in that, as the KK hand shows, eh?

Gonna just play freerolls until I feel like I won't mind if wind up losing games by getting big hands cracked. Hopefully they'll hold up, but if not, hopefully the next time, eh?
 
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downswings - Sat Feb 25, 2012, 04:00 AM
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shogun54U's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
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i can truly relate and have made the same mistakes time and time again. i took a whole week off and didnt play a single hand. instead i reviewed the online training videos. it helped for a while but then i was back to the head space of wondering why i kept losing when i was so far ahead until the river. then i read that one should not try to change ones game too quickly. I guess that i was trying to incorporate too much of what i was learning to quickly so i am going to focus on one lesson at a time and practice it till i got it before moving on to the next lesson. Thanks so much for that advice.
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 07:13 AM
(#12)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Thank you Sam,most impressive long term graph, you are a good player indeed. I was shocked yesterday when I took a break, because of tilt and downswing, played a 45man 25c sng on my return after several hours off and came 3rd.
So the proof is indeed in the pudding. Downswing can be beat by simply taking a break for a while,whether it be days or hours, depending how long an individual takes to reset his/her mindset.
Pokerstars probably will not like me telliing people this is the way, however long term there will be much more satisfied customers.
And them graphs Sam , immmeadiate and long term show the facts that downswing is short term if you are a good player.
This as give myself personally an even better out look on the game thanks.

So it can be said that variance can be beaten if your timing is right, if you manage to miss them bad days or bad hours, then you will only play when variance favours you. However lucky guessing on the timing is what it takes as no one can predict when this will or will not happen.

Sam I would not worry about the slight swing you have had, just class that as the run of the normal, because thats how it is.
You are truly one smart cookie Sam I really appreciate the chat.
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 07:16 AM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by shogun54U View Post
i can truly relate and have made the same mistakes time and time again. i took a whole week off and didnt play a single hand. instead i reviewed the online training videos. it helped for a while but then i was back to the head space of wondering why i kept losing when i was so far ahead until the river. then i read that one should not try to change ones game too quickly. I guess that i was trying to incorporate too much of what i was learning to quickly so i am going to focus on one lesson at a time and practice it till i got it before moving on to the next lesson. Thanks so much for that advice.
Hi shogun practice on the free play with free chips mate, or if like me you feel the need to play with real money try the 2c tourneys, at 2c practice all you want no big loss if you do loose,most of all though have fun, do not be tense,do not try to win every game, just play.
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 04:24 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
I was shocked yesterday when I took a break, because of tilt and downswing, played a 45man 25c sng on my return after several hours off and came 3rd.

So the proof is indeed in the pudding. Downswing can be beat by simply taking a break for a while,whether it be days or hours, depending how long an individual takes to reset his/her mindset.
Hey, that's a nice story holdem - I'm still on my break, so I wasn't sure if it's working or not

That's great news to hear it might be the thing to do - big congrats on another great showing at the tables ... awesome!!

The variance can be such a bear ... but who knows - maybe that's the best way to deal with it, eh?

Maybe I'll give a game a try in a little while and see how it goes
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 05:23 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Just played a game, and the break seemed to really help, I think

Now I need a new one though - lost both flips to the same person and busted out ... so no more poker for today
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 08:51 AM
(#16)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Lol Sam I played crap last night so I too come off and left it be untill I feel more like I get the concentration levels back.
At least this way I am keeping my BR in tact
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:34 PM
(#17)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Lol Sam I played crap last night so I too come off and left it be untill I feel more like I get the concentration levels back.
At least this way I am keeping my BR in tact
returned to a 2nd place in the 45ppl tourneys mindset is the key.
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:57 PM
(#18)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Awesome holdem!!

Think I'm gonna stick to freerolls this afternoon, and stick to that break with the STT's
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 04:34 PM
(#19)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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That freeroll was actually pretty stressful ... omg, those pros were so good!! They know things ... pro things ...

May need a break from the freerolls too - haha!!

Sam
 
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Mon Feb 27, 2012, 04:04 AM
(#20)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
LOl Sam I think break wise , its just more to feel like you want to play, i play half hearted sometimes and thats the killer.
 

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