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My game goes out the window when I get close to doing more then placing - why

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My game goes out the window when I get close to doing more then placing - why - Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:38 PM
(#1)
Mohasaba's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
I know my game has improved. I am doing better. I am ok getting to the final table in 25 cent and lower games. Once I get close to 3rd place my game goes out the window. Suddenly I start making bad calls. Ones I would never make early on in the game. I will sit there and tell myself its a bad call and do it anyway. I quickly loose once I hit 4th place (sometimes just getting to the final table triggers it).

As for bigger games, same problem but sooner. It is almost as if I get intimitdated by the money value and loose my game completely. I was so proud of myself a few days ago. I placed 15th in a 1 dollar game. However, I had been chipleader on and off right until we where down to two tables. Once I was actually close to winning some real money (for me more then $2 is real money) I started doing stouped calls. It was as if my brain left, or I was trying to loose, not win.

My husband said that I do this every single time I get close to winning, but why do I do it? How do I get past this hang up, this choice to loose instead of trying to win?
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:57 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hi mohasaba!

I don't know, as I haven't seen any hands of yours, but I did take a look at your numbers from OPR (online poker rankings). If I had to take a guess, it looks like you might be playing and calling too many hands the entire tourney (but the ones that stick out to you are the ones when you're ITM). It shows 35% early/early-mid finishes, which is high and can be from playing too loose early. With you saying that you're calling too much late, I'd guess that you may be doing it too much the entire tourney.... but without knowing any of the hands, couldn't be sure. When a player does that, they play too many marginal hands (which can result in a larger chip stack if they get lucky.... or an earlier exit than they should get).
If this is the case, the key is to learn patience and to be able to survive longer in tournies.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 09:05 PM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
This looks like a form of 'tilt' - or some emotional response to the game situation. Usually tilt is brought on by getting no cards, bad beats or running into coolers or just getting wound up by opponents - something of that nature - but really it is all just any form of stress that affects your decision making.

It looks to me as though you are getting stressed by having got yourself into a good position -and then the stress is causing you to react in a way that is bad for your game. I have felt this myself - for instance when I get to an FT the money jumps for each place can be significant and I maybe think too much about that rather than what is the best way to play each hand against the specific opponents I have.

At least you are aware this happens - so you can now try to find a strategy for when you get into these situations.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
(#4)
Mohasaba's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
Thank you for looking into it. I have learned in the last few months to call fewer hands. I could try to scale it back even more. I have been trying to call only high face cards and a few posible flush hands. I have been folding a lot because people are calling all in, and I just will not do that with most of the hands I get. For example I get KK and an A hits the flop and someone calls high I tend to fold, expecially if they go all in.

I don't know why but it seems like people tend to call all in in a lot of the games I play. For example I am in the 100k freerole and in the last 3 hands people called all in before the flop. If I had an ok hand I would have called the big blind, but will fold if someone calls all in behind me. It may be because they can rebuy. But it is just an example. I have been learning to fold those hands until I actually have a hand worth going all in. In the past I would have called. Now I am actually making it further into the tournaments. But then I think the very thing that is helping me get further may be killing me when I get to the final table. I am not calling enough maybe.

What type of info should I be looking at to better understand what I am doing wrong?
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 09:25 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hi mohasaba!

I'd start by watching some of Dave's (TheLangolier) videos in the video section, especially the strategy ones (3,23,25,2,22), then the others... but the ones I listed first. These are a great place to start.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 09:36 PM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi Mohasaba, congrats on making it to final tables, I see you are letting your gaurd drop maybe when you make the ITM, and relaxing as you feel the job is done. Do not forget when the table is 3-4 way your starting hands change and waiting for that ace ace will not work.
I do not know what videos jW as suggested but these always work well so I would watch them if you have not all ready.
And may I suggest you watch some heads up videos ,this will help improve your end game,
3-4 way is not far off heads up type play so I would suggest that also.
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:09 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
And may I suggest you watch some heads up videos ,this will help improve your end game,
3-4 way is not far off heads up type play so I would suggest that also.
3-4 left, especially when the top 3 get paid much more is a very different game from heads-up.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:18 PM
(#8)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Hi! Mohasaba,

Welcome to PSO and the forum. I would suggest to also make use of hand analysis section of the forum, from my personal experience it has helped me a great deal in improving my game.

Try posting some hands for analysis where you found yourself in difficult spots, you will get feedback from experienced hand analyzers and members about how they would deal those situations. As you will get various point of views for that particular situation which will help you tremendously if you are in a similar situation in the future.

Good luck on the felt.

Cheers.
 
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Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:30 PM
(#9)
shivaa-divaa's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 23
blinds also play a role when you get down to the last few. Maybe the blinds being higher and occuring more frequently, is making you play marginal hands. Try working out your number of outs to determine if it's worth a chase to steal blinds which can be very lucrative at the final table or if it is better to fold out thehand and pay the cost of the blind.
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:00 AM
(#10)
shivaa-divaa's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 23
John (moderator John)
Where would i find OPR (online poker rankings)?
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:34 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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I wonder if you're doing what I used to do ... be so eager to get people out, that the second they're willing to put their chips on the line, I was so in!!

Turns out we're not supposed to do that

Those spacegravy videos were a real eye opener for me on how to 'call tight and shove light' at the late stages of tournament play, on the bubble when half the table is short-stacked. You don't really see grayson calling practically any shoves - instead he's looking to shove into people he feels won't likely call ... with hands as poor as like 35o and stuff.

Like maybe you're playing both too loose and too tight? Calling too loose, and not shoving enough?

Calling: I didn't get this from the videos per se, but in terms of calling peoples all-ins, I won't call all-ins unless (1) They've done it repeatedly, (2) They've got less than 10bb's, (3) I've got 4 times their stack, (4) And I won't move from 2nd to 3rd in chips if I call and lose, or whatever. Which pretty much reduces my calling range to like TT+, AJ+.

Shoving: And then, like maybe there's shoving opportunities where you might be able to pick up blinds? If there are two or three short-stacks who appear to be waiting out the bubble, and one of them is in the bb when everybody's folded to you in the sb - like since they won't likely call unless they have AA or KK, you can shove pretty wide? Pretty much any two?

The spacegravy videos are the ones that cover late-stage play ... they're pretty good! GL!!
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 01:22 AM
(#12)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaa-divaa View Post
John (moderator John)
Where would i find OPR (online poker rankings)?

www.officialpokerrankings.com

It's free to shivaa. Open an account (or whatever else they require,I forget...been 15 months since I did..I do know it's free though...) and you can play with the filters,look up other players...the whole nine yards.

Keep in mind that OPR does NOT track ring tables,freerolls.private games,FPP games and satellites and any sit and goes of LESS than 36 players. So it's incomplete information,but for what it does track it's a good site.
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 01:46 AM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I wonder if you're doing what I used to do ... be so eager to get people out, that the second they're willing to put their chips on the line, I was so in!!

Turns out we're not supposed to do that

Those spacegravy videos were a real eye opener for me on how to 'call tight and shove light' at the late stages of tournament play, on the bubble when half the table is short-stacked. You don't really see grayson calling practically any shoves - instead he's looking to shove into people he feels won't likely call ... with hands as poor as like 35o and stuff.

Like maybe you're playing both too loose and too tight? Calling too loose, and not shoving enough?

Calling: I didn't get this from the videos per se, but in terms of calling peoples all-ins, I won't call all-ins unless (1) They've done it repeatedly, (2) They've got less than 10bb's, (3) I've got 4 times their stack, (4) And I won't move from 2nd to 3rd in chips if I call and lose, or whatever. Which pretty much reduces my calling range to like TT+, AJ+.

Shoving: And then, like maybe there's shoving opportunities where you might be able to pick up blinds? If there are two or three short-stacks who appear to be waiting out the bubble, and one of them is in the bb when everybody's folded to you in the sb - like since they won't likely call unless they have AA or KK, you can shove pretty wide? Pretty much any two?

The spacegravy videos are the ones that cover late-stage play ... they're pretty good! GL!!

THIS!!!

Hi mohasaba and welcome.

Simplest way to say this is to remember one of the easiest things to remember about this game,one of it's most essential truths...and one that (thankfully once YOU learn it) many players never connect with...it takes a better hand to call than it does to raise or ship all-in.

If YOU are the raiser and you have a good image (you can't play 35% of hands all the time and have this BTW so tighten up some there moha...) then when you raise your ops should be tightening up what they will call with. At the micro levels many won't,which has it's advantages and disadvantages. Take copious notes on players to learn what type of ranges they will call and raise with and don't forget to include any variations for position.

Conversely when THEY raise YOU should be tightening up your range as well.

Now here's where it can get a bit tricky...when you get to 2-5 handed at the end game of any tournament or SNG stack sizing and opponent reads are going to become just as,if not MORE,important than the quality of your holdings. This is where equity can become even more important because so many plays will be push/fold situations.

I strongly suggest that to help you be better prepared for the why's and whens of calling with a hand like 75s can be a very GOOD thing that you download pokerstove (pokerstove.com) and then watch Langoliers' video #26--Introduction to Pokerstove. This is a free and invaluable tool to help you along and one that you will never not have a need for. Learn how to utilize it now.

Do that and watch the videos that JWK and Sam suggested here and you'll have a firmer footing. Don't try to take everything in at once,you'll just overwhelm yourself. Hit the high notes and then you can fill in the spaces with the more advanced concepts later. Just gleaning the more basic stuff in these videos will put you ahead of many of the players you'll see in these games.

Again I cannot stress these things enough--better hand to call than to rasie,take plenty of detailed notes (Langolier has a great video on proper note taking as well,highly recommended) and lastly always keep this thought in mind---do NOT try to beat bad players. Make THEM try to beat YOU.

There is a big difference.

Good luck and better decisions.
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 09:08 AM
(#14)
Mohasaba's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaa-divaa View Post
blinds also play a role when you get down to the last few. Maybe the blinds being higher and occuring more frequently, is making you play marginal hands. Try working out your number of outs to determine if it's worth a chase to steal blinds which can be very lucrative at the final table or if it is better to fold out thehand and pay the cost of the blind.
Dead on, I have problems with being killed by the blinds trying not to call bad hands, and when I do get a good hand the other players tend to call real high getting me to fold before the flop.
 
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Thank you - will look up the videos - Sun Feb 26, 2012, 09:19 AM
(#15)
Mohasaba's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
I am going to look up the videos. I have more classes to go through. I have found them very helpfull, and feel they have changed my game a lot. I love this poker school!

I really tried to play better last night and ended up 27th on the poker schools open skills league, but again found myself in trouble once I got to the higher blinds. I really need to take the time and watch the videos. I will also see if there is more I can get out of the classes. I will also try to use the forum to get feed back on actual hands I have problems with.

I don't seem to change my style of play when I get to the bigger binds so I will work on learning all about dealing with changing stratagies.

I also suck at bluffing, which I think may be part of the problem, lol.
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 09:22 AM
(#16)
Mohasaba's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
[QUOTE=Mohasaba;339657
I really tried to play better last night and ended up 27th on the poker schools open skills league/QUOTE]
I ment 27th place in the game not the actual league, I wish. lol
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
(#17)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi Mohasaba
27th a big congrats keep it up, you are finishing 3rds 4ths etc are you sure theres something wrong with your game?
Maybe a bit of self beleif is all that all you need
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 10:27 AM
(#18)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
at the Final table just be observant on what range they are playing, don't be too eager to knock a player in 1 shoot. I good technique that is useful for me is watch my stack size compare to the one i gonna play with. No minimum raise, just shove and fold unless you want to trap them when you got monster.
Table image really help and can give you free card and they will fold even i 1BB bet.

Hope it helps
 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:02 PM
(#19)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaa-divaa View Post
John (moderator John)
Where would i find OPR (online poker rankings)?
www.officialpokerrankings.com

Please note that they do not track all tourneys (only 36+ players and no special/private tourneys nor freerolls)

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Feb 26, 2012, 04:55 PM
(#20)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohasaba View Post
I am going to look up the videos. I have more classes to go through. I have found them very helpfull, and feel they have changed my game a lot. I love this poker school!

I really tried to play better last night and ended up 27th on the poker schools open skills league, but again found myself in trouble once I got to the higher blinds. I really need to take the time and watch the videos. I will also see if there is more I can get out of the classes. I will also try to use the forum to get feed back on actual hands I have problems with.

I don't seem to change my style of play when I get to the bigger binds so I will work on learning all about dealing with changing stratagies.

I also suck at bluffing, which I think may be part of the problem, lol.

For the most part at the micro levels and in freerolls like the skill leagues bluffing is going to equal spewing chips. It goes back to what I said in my prior post---don't try to beat bad players,make them try to beat you. Most players at these levels are bad. Bad meaning that many of them are calling stations for one example---that means that many players you try to bluff are simply incapable of folding hands like bottom pair or middle pair with a weak kicker and such. Your bluff may actually be a good one and in a proper spot...but as the playwright David Mamet wrote once...

"You cannot bluff a player who isn't paying attention".

As to the changing gears at the bubble and FT levels,especially in relation to the blinds and effective stack sizes...this is exactly the type of thing for which pokerstove can be a big boon to your game.

TrumpinJoe said it so right earlier in another post and it goes to what I said earlier about stack sizes and table image and position all becoming just as,if not more,important to you actual hand strength at some point. What Joe said was this---focusing on +EV situations is more important than focusing on +EV hands.
 

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