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Good fold?

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Good fold? - Thu Mar 01, 2012, 02:12 PM
(#1)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
P.S. - Sorry for the pointless hand. Just sort of wanted confirmation I was right. Hadn't gotten many hands tonight and ehh was starting to tilt a little.

Last edited by sydhollow97; Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 02:24 PM..
 
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Thu Mar 01, 2012, 08:46 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
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If you were tilting then you probably made a good fold. Without a hand history though it's kind of hard to tell for sure....


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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 08:54 PM
(#3)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82


Yea sorry this was the hand in question. After taking a little break from the tables I thought I'd look sort of silly wasting time with really what I figured an "unimportant" hand considering the pot wasn't something huge and I didn't feel as though I was in a really rough decision. At the moment it was one of the better hands I had all night and really the fold came down to just me not wanting to call the bet on the turn knowing I'm 100% check/folding the river with the action so far. If an actual evaluation might be helpful for this hand I just wanted to repost it. Just sort of felt embarrassed about taking up someone's time when it could be used to evaluate a hand we could all learn from and couldn't find a "delete thread" button so just decided to edit it out. I still might be wrong in folding but I just decided to let it go as it just seemed like a hand that wouldn't bring up any interest.
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 01:06 AM
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JDean's Avatar
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Hi Sydhollow97.

Um, 1 question...

When you raise AK pre flop and flop top/top, what leads you to make the statement that you'd check/fold the river on any card, so that's why you folded?

I can certainly see reason in a pot control line, and electing to check/call the turn and possibly check/call the river, but in order to fold this hand I'd say you need VERY specific info. Afterall, what did you EXPECT to flop when you raised AK?

Please, supply some info about your opponent here, and give us a chance to see if maybe things were a bit different than they seemed. As played, this smacks a little bit of "scared poker" to me...

-JDean


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Last edited by JDean; Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 01:10 AM..
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 01:22 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hi syd,

I agree with JDean that some info on the villain would be helpful to make some more informed decisions.

Without the reads though I do think your fold isn't bad. The villains line looks very strong, so what is his range of hands for a reasonable player to take such a strong line with? AK, AQ maybe, aces up, and sets. The problem with that is there are no hands in that range you're beating, since AQ just got there. A big key here is that you hold the Ad. If you did not, then we could add AdXd into his range (top pair + nfd) and the waters get murky.

Reads can change this... if the villain is prone to overplaying hands and can actually be out of line with AJ or AT here, if they semi-bluff draws strongly, now I'm more inclined to check/call the turn. Against someone who understands hand strengths and is not an overaggressor folding is probably good.


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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 01:50 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Afterall, what did you EXPECT to flop when you raised AK?

Please, supply some info about your opponent here, and give us a chance to see if maybe things were a bit different than they seemed. As played, this smacks a little bit of "scared poker" to me...
When we hold 2 unpaired cards the most likely way we'll connect with the flop is 1 pair, so sure we're expecting top/top when we hit. That doesn't mean we should automatically play a huge pot with it in a single raised pot vs. a villain taking a very strong post flop line.

This is a tricky spot because against a villain who's not wacko we're pretty much smashed by his range taking this line, but we are also talking about micro-stakes and lots of villains that make big mistakes and do stuff that is bad all the time, so without reads it's more sketchy, but I wouldn't call it scared poker personally without a read that dictates the guy is out of line often enough that it's profitable to look him up.


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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 03:12 AM
(#7)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
When we hold 2 unpaired cards the most likely way we'll connect with the flop is 1 pair, so sure we're expecting top/top when we hit. That doesn't mean we should automatically play a huge pot with it in a single raised pot vs. a villain taking a very strong post flop line.

This is a tricky spot because against a villain who's not wacko we're pretty much smashed by his range taking this line, but we are also talking about micro-stakes and lots of villains that make big mistakes and do stuff that is bad all the time, so without reads it's more sketchy, but I wouldn't call it scared poker personally without a read that dictates the guy is out of line often enough that it's profitable to look him up.
Hmm, you guys might be right since i was a little tilty that night so this definitely could've been a mistake by me. Let me find the stats I had for this guy.
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 03:30 AM
(#8)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
Ok, found him.

He was playing VPiP - 13% PFR - 8% (only 191 hands)

I think his tightish stats were the reason for me folding this OOP. His aggro was 57%. Um, I actually only have 5 hands that he got to showdown with. One of them was a limped pot where he called with QdJd. The board came Q/6/4 rainbow, he called the flop. Turn - King. He called again. And it went check check on the river. I don't know if i was aware of this hand or not when I played him.
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 05:09 AM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydhollow97 View Post
Ok, found him.

He was playing VPiP - 13% PFR - 8% (only 191 hands)

I think his tightish stats were the reason for me folding this OOP. His aggro was 57%. Um, I actually only have 5 hands that he got to showdown with. One of them was a limped pot where he called with QdJd. The board came Q/6/4 rainbow, he called the flop. Turn - King. He called again. And it went check check on the river. I don't know if i was aware of this hand or not when I played him.
OK.

that gives us more info...

We now know that this opp raising is not going to be an over value of an AJ/AT type hand; his play of an QJ top pair hit showed a bigger propensity to call rather than raise marginal kickers. he likely isn;' getting overly aggro with non A flush draws either, although the depth of money does allow a bit of room to make a small raise to perhaps slow you down a bit and buy free cards; still it doesn't really fit his profile much.

13/8 also tells us that he may well limp along to set mine with 66/77, especially with position. If you are playing reasonably tightly, those are good hands to get involved with in a pretty deep money situation; they either flop huge, or are easy (and cheap) folds.

All in all, given this info your fold makes a lot more sense because about the only hand he might play like this, AQ, got there on the turn.

A fold makes a lot more sense with the stats and info.

-JDean


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Last edited by JDean; Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 05:14 AM..
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 09:29 AM
(#10)
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Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
This also really shows what being out of position and losing the betting lead can do to you. I'd definitely take this sort of line with 9d10d in his position, but you figure with his Agg factor not being really high I'm leaning more towards that he has a made hand (which all beat me considering the line he took). Eh, I think at the end of they day I'm fine with being bluffed if he played a big draw that well. If I call and he misses on the river and bets again after I check I'm going to feel sick. I think as I move up in stakes I'll have to learn more about picking up on situations like this, but in micro stakes I'm fine with just a fold and moving onto the next one. Hopefully with position and a fish in the pot with me
 
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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 01:35 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
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Posts: 13,501
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Yep, I agree, in light of the reads this is a clear fold imo. This guy is just not bluffing or spazzing worse enough for us to think we can continue profitably.


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Sun Mar 04, 2012, 05:36 PM
(#12)
sydhollow97's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 82
Either way, I want to thank you guys for your time in discussing this hand. I did feel fairly comfortable about this fold, but in any case it does help to have someone agree with you. I'll try not to post any more hands where I feel that the decision making process has been most likely covered in one way or another in one of the many Live Training videos. After all, I did learn everything I know from you guys and if I actually felt comfortable making a decision it's definitely the lessons sinking in.

Thanks again,
Luke
 
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Mon Mar 05, 2012, 04:12 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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BTW...

After looking at your graph, I should-a know there'd be stat info to back up this fold...

One does not really see that steep a profitable graph playing "scared poker"!

You COULD see a positive graph at the micro's playing a tight/passive style, but the graph would be a lot flatter in advancement than yours is

-JDean


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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 07:38 AM
(#14)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
I think using those holdem manager things make people play bad
 

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