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10-10 - Sat Mar 03, 2012, 10:27 AM
(#1)
AmaturePlayr's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 59
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner










was trying to isolate berk, considering he low stacked , should i have just shoved, this hand actually got me 4th, but what did i do wrong here?

Last edited by AmaturePlayr; Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 10:30 AM.. Reason: new
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 10:55 AM
(#2)
nee0903's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
I think u should generally open raise with 1010,limping will get the bigblind atleast to play..2ndly when fei bets over two limpers he is most likely to have a hand unless u have any specific reads on him..When the short stack shoves over the top..u r in a little tricky situation ..the short stack is most likely to have hands like AK,AQ,AJ,88,99,KQs,KJS and stuff like that..so u will be coin flipping against him..Also if u call his shove then wat ?..r u going to let fei see the flop too ?No because ur 10-10s are not going to be good against 2 opponents...So if at all u want to isolate u need to shove over the top of berk..It could be a fold as well if fei has been tight..u might not want to risk ur life with 1010..by calling berks shove u r almost commiting urself and in my opinion u cant fold it later if fei shoves..

Last edited by nee0903; Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 11:01 AM..
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 11:39 AM
(#3)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
Agree with nee there, limping from UTG is not a good idea. As you can see from what follows: a caller, a 3-bet and a shove. At this point, I hate my life, as they say.
option 1: fold. I hate to fold pocket 10s here, but crap.
option 2: flatcall the shove. Not a viable option, because it's for 1/3 of my stack, and I'm not closing the action. There's a good chance the limper's gonna reshove, causing the big stack button to be priced in with everything upto the 7,2. And even if the limper folds, odds are that the big stack button will reshove anyway and then what
option 3: reshove. But then the limper might call or fold, and the button will just come along anyway for the fun of it. He can afford to be wrong there and he's getting great odds.

Looking at these three options, I'm inclined to fold here given the uncertainty of the action behind me. If I was closing the action I'd make the flatcall, but not with two people left to act uncluding a huge stack. As you can see, option 2 was your preferred choice, and the button did reshove. Now you're priced in to stack off here, but probably hating it.

Also: you say you're trying to isolate berkut. A call doesn't isolate anything, since you're picing the two other guys in to come along for the ride. If you want to isolate, you'd have to reshove here, and I'm doubtful if that'll get the job done.

As for the preflop action, I definitely wouldn't be shoving there, but I would have made a raise to 1800 or so, intending to call a reshove from the two shorties, and willing to fold should the two biggies provide ugkly action behind. Then again - there's a good chance if you raise here, the limper and button would both have folded putting you in great position. If I make it 1700 here, the big stack calls or raises, and berkut shoving, I can see myself getting away from the tens here.

I wouldn't be shoving here simply because of the two huge stacks to act behind. Berkut is so short I don't wanna bust before him, which is exactly what could happen if I shove. If I do shove and either of the biggies puts me all-in, I doubt they're calling light which would put my 10 10 in bad position.

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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 01:01 PM
(#4)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
Uff, what a predicament.

Here is what I would have thought:

1. Ok, I am not shoving all-in from this position. I have 9M or something and I really don't want to be called by the stack leader.

2. Well, I could try a first in 3 bet for the fold equity. Problem is, a 3bet is the same as a shove for all practical purposes (1/3rd of stack leaves me pot committed), but is more trivial to call for the big stack. He has position on me, so a raise, then shove after a post flop check cannot work. So if I want to do 2. then it is a stronger play to do 1. And I have decided not to do 1.

3. I could call. But that is hoping for a 3rd 10 on flop and I simply don't have the chips to call-fold.


4. So I fold.

The fold dictated by UTG and other player stack sizes. Different position would have given room for a different play.

My thinking may be way off however. So take it with a pound of salt

Edit
Here is how my mind works - I see the only reason for going in as for the fold equity. I would not want to get called. I figure a 3bet the minimum to gain fold equity, I cannot afford that with my chip count (20 000 would have been different). So I am facing a gauntlet: A lead stack first, then a small stack looking for a shove window, then the 2nd chip leader defending his blind... I would just see it as too likely to get called and too likely to lose if I get called. It is even quite likely that more than one person would be entering this pot...and then I am screwed. Position being the deciding factor. Under the Gun is a horrible place to be the way the table looks. In my mind at least.

Last edited by jergul; Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 01:18 PM.. Reason: For more clarity
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 03:11 PM
(#5)
AmaturePlayr's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 59
thank u all, i should of just shoved by the looks of it, but not knowing big stack had KK, i maybe could of folded, but with 5 playas, left and top prize 60$, thats why i played that way
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 03:22 PM
(#6)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
I dunno player. Lets look at something I barely understand at all as an argument for folding.

You currently have around 16/118 of chips, leader has 54 little guy 6 and the BB 42 (extremely rounded numbers, but that is the least of inaccuracies) If I just say the only 3 first places count (another inaccuracy), and that is equal 108 total cash, then

1. 36 dollars
2. 32 dollars
3. 24 dollars
4. 16 dollars

If the fourth guy is taken out by the chip leader, then you get something like

1. 40 dollars
2. 37 dollars
3. 31 dollars

Meaning if you are going to fight the little guy and are sure you can isolate him, then you need to be very sure (65%+ sure) that you will win, because if someone else takes on the risks you gain anyway. In sum - he is going to make a desperate play really soon. The big guys know that. Let the big guys kill him. The money is in it for you that way too.

Note I totally winged the above numbers and they are likely way off. I just wanted to illustrate a principle I understand poorly. Worth considering at least. Someone prolly knows how to actually calculate this to reduce the mistake order of magnitude.
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 05:00 PM
(#7)
AmaturePlayr's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 59
it was a 2.50, 90 man sng, 4th was 20$, top was 65$, so basically that was my move, if i hit im in top 2, for at least 42$

u guys been a help alot, i just coundnt, c laying it down at final table with 5 playas left, but the shove i shouded did instead, preflop
 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 05:29 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi AmaturePlayr!

I understand wanting to isolate the short stack. That's a good thought, but to isolate an opponent, a player needs to show strength in the hand. Limping from UTG does not do that, it says to the table that I have a weak to marginal hand at best.

From UTG, I'm going to either make a std open raise or fold. With pocket 10's, I'm making my std raise for this level, which is to 2.5BB, or 2k.

After my play, there is a call, then a raise to 3X, then the short-stack shoves. The large stack only needs to put in less than their bet now to call, which means that I'm most likely going to be in a 3-way pot.

Let's see if the math for shoving works, as if I play the hand I would want to overshove. We'll assume that the big stack stays, as they raised over two limpers, so they must like their hand.
I will have to put 13620 into a pot that will be 35543 (38.3%).
To see what my hand equity is, for the short stack, I will use a range of (any A, any pair, any broadway), and for the big stack, I'll use (AQs+, 99+). With these ranges, my pocket 10's has 33% equity.
Since the % that I have to put into the pot is higher than the equity % in my hand, this is a -5.3%EV play.

Due to this, especially with open-limping, I'm going to fold to the short stack's shove, as the bigstack will most likely call and my pocket 10's does not play as well against two players.

I would have made my standard open raise here, then mucked to a raise and then shove, as I don't want to be in a 3-way pot with a marginal made hand.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Mar 03, 2012, 05:48 PM
(#9)
AmaturePlayr's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 59
ok maybe a hand of the day for why or a post on ur opinions
 

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