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YOU analyze this! (please :) )

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YOU analyze this! (please :) ) - Wed Mar 07, 2012, 01:12 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hiya!

SITUATION:

Live $50 BI MTT.
top 3 paid, with ~$320 for 1st, $215 for 2nd, and $65 for 3rd
(most of the money goes for the overall league prize, see below)
51 Runners to start, 26 remain.
4,000 Start Stacks.

Blinds = 300/600 75 ante, advancing to 500/1000 100 ante in about 6 minutes.
(20 min levels)

Avg MTT Stack = ~7850

Hero's Stack = 8700 (-375 posted in SB, plus ante)
Villain's stack = 6375 (-675 posted in BB, plus ante)

"Hero" has recently been moved to the table after consolidation of tables at 30 players.
"Villain" also has recently moved to the table at the same time.

What Hero Knows about Villain:

1) He is a good player, with solid ranging skills.

2) He is normally on the tight side, but can be opportunistically aggressive, especially short stacked.

3) He has folded approximately 12 hands in a row since sitting down at the table.

4) On the previous hand, Villain had shoved his (approximately) 4800 chip stack in UTG and took down the blinds. Hero mucked AQo face up from his BB there, and villain did not show.

5) As Hero has played the same MTT each week for 5 weeks now, he has had conversations with the Villain before (at breaks and after events); the Villain has expressed the thought he thinks the Hero is a big Nit when he has chips, but that he seems prone to making loose calls when EXTREMELY short stacked.

NOW...

The action folds around to Hero in the SB.
Hero looks down and sees: Ah Qh

FIRST QUESTION FOR YOU: As the hero, what do you do here with AhQh?
(Please answer this in your post before moving on to answer the other questions)

Hero elects to RAISE, and makes it 1800 to go (~20.7% of his stack).

Villain looks at his cards, announces "All in", and pushes his entire stack forward.

FINAL QUESTIONS:

1) Would you call or fold?
2) What RANGE to you put the Villain on to shove here?
3) What is the equity of Ah Qh versus the perceived range you have?
4) What is the best way to maximize your "Tournament Equity" in this MTT?

(Note: This is a league game, with cumulative points for finish place each week, with only your top 6 of 9 scores counting. League "prize" = a seat in a 20 person free roll for a seat at the 2012 WSOP ME for the top 10 finishers in the league ranks. 11th through 60th play a "semi-final" free roll for the remaining 10 seats in the final. Overall, it appears that roughly 55 to 65 people will play the 6 events required to qualify to possibly play the semi final.)

Thoughts?


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Wed Mar 07, 2012 at 01:49 PM..
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 01:54 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
1) Raise to t1400 intending to induce a shove so that we can call. If he's good, he should not flat us here, but if he does, we can safely shove most flops even with A-high.

Other 1) Snap call.

2) A range I'm beating. (Question is unanswerable w/o reads on BvB tendencies, since one 'good' player to the next will shove a very different range here, although I'd guess around 20% of hands)

3) ~55%+

4) Need to know more about the scoring system.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Wed Mar 07, 2012 at 02:10 PM..
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 01:55 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi JDean,

FIRST QUESTION FOR YOU: As the hero, what do you do here with AhQh?

I would just put villain all in.


Hero elects to RAISE, and makes it 1800 to go (~20.7% of his stack).

Villain looks at his cards, announces "All in", and pushes his entire stack forward.

FINAL QUESTIONS:

1) Would you call or fold?


I would snap call villain, I already know this when I raise to 3x or I would not make the initial raise. Raise folding 3x on 10bb effective would be a pretty major spew, especially with blinds about to go up to 500-1K.

2) What RANGE to you put the Villain on to shove here?

77+, AJ+ bare minimum, plus a few weaker hands and bluffs since I know the villain views me as a nit and believes he has fold equity despite the hideousness of raise/folding 3x on 10bb effective.

3) What is the equity of Ah Qh versus the perceived range you have?

~49% in the worst case scenario, mostly I expect to be a small fav vs. villains range

4) What is the best way to maximize your "Tournament Equity" in this MTT?

I'm pretty sure it's to put villain in straight away and not raise less trying to induce a spazz. There's significant chips out there and we have a ton of fold equity.

Hope this helps,
Dave


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner




Last edited by TheLangolier; Wed Mar 07, 2012 at 02:00 PM..
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 01:58 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Curious to hear your thoughts on it too in the end JDean.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 02:25 PM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I was hoping to get an answer in first but tea got in the way.

With AQx in the SB I would raise my standard 1500, might even be tempted to shove; I have a slightly larger stack than the villain and that puts the onus on him.

1) I call within a heartbeat!

2) He may have a small to mid pocket pair and BW but he could be playing lesser hands as well.

3) From an odds perspective that leaves us around 47% and a slight dog but I am never raising AQx blind against blind and then folding.

4) The blind structure seems fairly steep, the average is already around 10BB if you include the antes. If you believe your finishing in the point scoring places is possible from where you sit currently then you could have considered folding AQx but that would be really nitty wouldn't it?

Cheers,

TC
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 02:29 PM
(#6)
jamesthefish's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
I am probably (on the whole) going to echo the previous comments. With AQ, I am likely to shove as you cannot fold if the villain shoves over your 3x raise but by shoving initially you also have fold equity.

I think you have to call his shove here. You are behind to a few premium hands, are ahead of some of his range / bluffs, otherwise its likely a flip. Probably averages out to 50-50 in the long run, and as you have already committed 20% of your chips, you have to call.

I guess you also know this player better than us (its probably easier to read when playing live), so if you think you are behind >60% of the time, I can see why you would consider mucking. I still dont like folding though as your AQ is decent against the BB range.

James
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 02:32 PM
(#7)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
Quote:
what do you do here with AhQh?
Just that. Raise , he shoves, I call.
His tournament life is on the line even more than mine - even though losing would pretty much cripple me.

Range, he's not believing our whatever he has, he's getting awfully close to the 9 BBs level, he's got a minimum of equity, he shoves us. I'm not folding.

I've still got the "semi-finals" and the short-stack moves to fall back on in case I lose, I'm not folding.
 
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Making the Leader Board - 1st Priority - Wed Mar 07, 2012, 07:08 PM
(#8)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hiya!
FIRST QUESTION FOR YOU: As the hero, what do you do here with AhQh?
(Please answer this in your post before moving on to answer the other questions)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FINAL QUESTIONS:

1) Would you call or fold?
2) What RANGE to you put the Villain on to shove here?
3) What is the equity of Ah Qh versus the perceived range you have?
4) What is the best way to maximize your "Tournament Equity" in this MTT?

(Note: This is a league game, with cumulative points for finish place each week, with only your top 6 of 9 scores counting. League "prize" = a seat in a 20 person free roll for a seat at the 2012 WSOP ME for the top 10 finishers in the league ranks. 11th through 60th play a "semi-final" free roll for the remaining 10 seats in the final. Overall, it appears that roughly 55 to 65 people will play the 6 events required to qualify to possibly play the semi final.)

Thoughts?
This is very tricky – It’s really based on ‘point equity’!

Without exact point structure, I will assume that the top 1/3 (17 players) of the field gets points; the points gradually increase exponentially. That’s the structure I’m most familiar with.

Being that monetarily placing in the tourney is secondary, and leader board climbing is primary – unconventional play at times is mandatory.

Answer to 1st question:
I probably would have shoved, but showing major strength into a solid player, may be another line. Hate to ‘spew’ if raised, but this line might get us to the point bubble. With the blinds so high, the next 9 guys out may be within 2 or 3 orbits. Yes this is NITty – but just going on a read. That was the plan.

Final questions:
By knowing that the villain feels you are a little loose when playing short, is a plus. But, after making a PFR of 3X, and getting shoved on is a bad sign. When a player elects to PFR in an obvious shove situation, it shows major strength. Villain should put hero on a premium hand (AK; QQ+), yet he 3bets hero AI anyway. I tightly range villain on a premium pair. Villain may factor some fold equity for his shove, increasing his equity a bit. Villain got free info from hero, when hero folded AQo in the BB to villain’s UTG shove. A player that ‘shows’ his hand may be ready to change up his play and/or wants to get villain to show what he shoved with – villain may take that into consideration. That hand was different, because hero was on the calling side, and had no money invested in the pot.

Hero’s read on villain is, he’s a solid player; he reads hands well, and he knows hero’s short ‘range’. I can only assume hero put out a ‘probe’ bet, knowing that villain will assess that hero has a premium hand. Hero also feels that villain will put him AI only with premium pairs; otherwise villain is folding. That seems to put villain mostly on KK, because you hold blockers for the other two premiums. If hero is that sure of his read, he’s not going to call. I need to ask hero, ‘was that your intention?’

Hand as played (factoring in the point system):
1) Fold – only the top 3 places get paid a stipend – basically they are sponsoring the main event. Climbing the leader board takes first priority.
2) QQ+
3) 27.6%
4) Making the point bubble.
.
 
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Wed Mar 07, 2012, 09:31 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
RESULT:

I was the "villain".

Nit announced at the table, "Well I cannot fold this time with money in", and called.

I rolled over AKo.

Q hit the flop, and I busted as a 70%+ favorite.

MY DECISION THOUGHTS:

The slight delay it took to look at my hand, on the order of maybe 1 second (I do not look at my cards before action comes to me), was plenty to set in my mind the the validity of a shove with AKo.

While "nit's" lesser raise could easily be AA/KK just hoping for a loose call/jam, I also felt that due to the structure and the Nit's particular bias toward "caution" there were also lesser hands he might raise like this.

I will be completely honest, versus The Langolier or JWK24 (or a few other opp's I have info on), the small raise would have been SCARIER than a Jam , and I would have to tighten my range considerably for them. Versus this guy, to whom 'caution' and under-playing his FE with marginal hands is a natural act, it is far less scary to my way of thinking. Versus the "hero" in this hand, an All in to race for my stack may have been "sick making" for me when I could ladder climb on 5700 and/or pick better spots versus the many stacks SMALLER than mine at the table. I say this only because I have busted early in EVERY event so far and was in HUGE "need" of a deeper run.

(My results so far: QJ vs AA wk 1 to lose half my stack getting almost 3 to 1 to call followed by a lost race to bust to go out 41 of 73, wk 2 I frittered my stack with toppairs/marginal kickers and shoved short in a bad race with a pp v pp to bust 42 of 60-some, wk 3 card dead with few opportunities as I only played 3 hands and the all in when I lost my all in flip to bust 41 of 57 or so with a med pp vs overs, wk 4 busted my AA v QQ to go out 51 of 58)

So my ranging on hero was pretty much the same as The Langolier's for ME: 77+, AJ+

(normally KQs /KJs/KTs would tend to Appear in a 7% poker stove range where AJo does NOT appear. I do strongly feel this player would exhibit a slight bias toward playing off suit As rather than Suited ks though, hence the ranging)

The pot created by the small raise was 3075 (675 antes + my 600 BB + the raise to 1800), therefore a shove of 5700 more will set me up with a situation where I am risking 5700 to potentially win 14,475 if I am called.

This 2.54 to 1 "price" if I am called means I need only about 28.25% equity (if called) to be fine. I will have that equity versus ANY hand except AA (including KK, which gives me roughly 30.1%). so my shove was pretty "standard" in my opinion...

BUT...

King of Spadez pretty much expresses my view of what the 'hero" SHOULD have been thinking, or at least he expresses what the hero should be thinking if he knew EVERYTHING that I know about "me". Obviously, he cannot know everything...

As the atmosphere is friendly, a lot of folks gather to talk about busts. While he MAY have a chance to realize I "need" points, 1 person "running bad" amongst a lot of people chatting on a weekly basis will not stick out in his memory most likely. I seriously DOUBT the "hero" knew my particular situation, where ladder climbing was so important to me.

Normally, I SHOULD be shoving quite wide here after he bloats the pot if I think he might fold (and I really do, as horrible a play as that is). A hand as weak as 86s has the right equity (~30.9% vs a 77+/AJ+ range) if called here; obviously AQs is fine to take versus that sort of huge variance range potential. He does know I think he is a nit, so if I have a score or 2 to "burn" (it was still only wk 5), I am perfectly capable of shoving a lot wider that QQ+ and AK.

NOTE: AhQh has about 45.95% equity versus 77+/AJ+, so getting a price of 4500 to win 14,475 (3.2 to 1), he needs to only have about 23.8% equity to call after he has made his raise.

His "worst case" equity versus even super tight "value" jam ranges are:

33% vs Sklansky "group 1" range (JJ+/AKs only).
28.6% vs QQ+ and AK (suited or off suit)
27.8% vs QQ+ and AKs only.

ANY of these Can have a case made for them in terms of a call (assuming the "hero" had a least 1 score he could "burn"). ANY widening of these ranges at all tends to improve his equity.

So while at the time I was a bit "miffed" that he would call as "light" as AQh when it is OBVIOUSLY I'm only value shoving there, that was based on info only I could know.

Using the info the "hero" had to work on, He probably did not LIKE making a call with AQh (see his table comments above), and that is understandable, but I can see that he pretty much HAD to make the call.

Thanks for the thoughts every one!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Wed Mar 07, 2012 at 09:35 PM..
 
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Equity % vs Range - Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:24 AM
(#10)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hero's Stack = 8700 (-375 posted in SB, plus ante)
Villain's stack = 6375 (-675 posted in BB, plus ante)

Hero elects to RAISE, and makes it 1800 to go (~20.7% of his stack).

Villain looks at his cards, announces "All in", and pushes his entire stack forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
The pot created by the small raise was 3075 (675 antes + my 600 BB + the raise to 1800), therefore a shove of 5700 more will set me up with a situation where I am risking 5700 to potentially win 14,475 if I am called.

This 2.54 to 1 "price" if I am called means I need only about 28.25% equity (if called) to be fine. I will have that equity versus ANY hand except AA (including KK, which gives me roughly 30.1%). so my shove was pretty "standard" in my opinion...

NOTE: AhQh has about 45.95% equity versus 77+/AJ+, so getting a price of 4500 to win 14,475 (3.2 to 1), he needs to only have about 23.8% equity to call after he has made his raise.
-JDean
It’s late – but the hero’s and villain’s equity seem wrong.
Total pot after villain’s shove and hero’s call:
6300 (hero’s share) + 6300 (villains share) + 675 (antes (9 x 75)) = 13275

Assuming no fold equity –

villains shoved 5700 to win 7575 (1.33:1 odds) (= total pot of 13275)
need at least 43% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

hero called 4500 (to see AI) to win 8775 (1.95:1) (= total pot 13275)
need at least 34% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

This might change villain’s mind to shove, if he puts hero on a tighter range (AK+; QQ+).
This might change hero’s mind to call, if he puts villain on a tighter range (AK;QQ+).
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 03:04 AM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
It’s late – but the hero’s and villain’s equity seem wrong.
Total pot after villain’s shove and hero’s call:
6300 (hero’s share) + 6300 (villains share) + 675 (antes (9 x 75)) = 13275

Assuming no fold equity –

villains shoved 5700 to win 7575 (1.33:1 odds) (= total pot of 13275)
need at least 43% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

hero called 4500 (to see AI) to win 8775 (1.95:1) (= total pot 13275)
need at least 34% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

This might change villain’s mind to shove, if he puts hero on a tighter range (AK+; QQ+).
This might change hero’s mind to call, if he puts villain on a tighter range (AK;QQ+).
Pot = 1800 (raise amount of Hero) + 600 (BB posted by Villain) + 675 (antes) = 3075

Villain shoved 5700 more, which IF CALLED pot will be 6300 (total of Villain's stack) + 6300 (total of hero's call) + 675 = 13,275...so yes, my numbers were off.

Still, Villain (me) was shoving 5700 to pick up maybe 13,275 with a hand that is a race at worse IF CALLED. That's better than 2 to 1, and that means I "know" even KK doesn't "scare" me there.
(I know this because I've memorized the fact that my over card A to KK gives me around 30%, and 2 to 1 means I only need 33% to break even; at exactly 33% equity I'd feel I was "close enough")

I have to be completely honest, within 1 second or so it takes to look at cards, I do NOT do detailed math. The "short cut" I tend to take is this:

"He raised to 1800, 675 in antes, plus 600 in my BB = 3k. My shove amount is about 5500, so with over half my stack in, I am getting a great price to shove what I think is a race at worse, and a 65%+ favorite if he has ANY unpaired cards."

BINK! That's all it takes to make me jam AK for the odds.

My "mistake" was that I forgot to remove the cost of the BB from the calc (add 1200 and you will see that's the number I threw out). That was a mistake in writing here, but not one that I ran into LIVE, simply because I did not need to calc the odds to the nth degree in the heat of the moment; all it took was knowing the amount in the pot when I shoved was better than HALF my remaining chips to make it worthwhile to jam.

See?


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Hand Equity - Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:59 PM
(#12)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
This 2.54 to 1 "price" if I am called means I need only about 28.25% equity (if called) to be fine. I will have that equity versus ANY hand except AA (including KK, which gives me roughly 30.1%). so my shove was pretty "standard" in my opinion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
It’s late – but the hero’s and villain’s equity seem wrong.
Total pot after villain’s shove and hero’s call:
6300 (hero’s share) + 6300 (villains share) + 675 (antes (9 x 75)) = 13275

Assuming no fold equity –

villains shoved 5700 to win 7575 (1.33:1 odds) (= total pot of 13275)
need at least 43% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

hero called 4500 (to see AI) to win 8775 (1.95:1) (= total pot 13275)
need at least 34% equity for +$EV (shove / total pot)

This might change villain’s mind to shove, if he puts hero on a tighter range (AK+; QQ+).
This might change hero’s mind to call, if he puts villain on a tighter range (AK;QQ+).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Still, Villain (me) was shoving 5700 to pick up maybe 13,275 with a hand that is a race at worse IF CALLED. That's better than 2 to 1, and that means I "know" even KK doesn't "scare" me there.
(I know this because I've memorized the fact that my over card A to KK gives me around 30%, and 2 to 1 means I only need 33% to break even; at exactly 33% equity I'd feel I was "close enough")
Let me preface this post by stating… I totally respect and appreciate your analysis. Reading your hand analyses in the forums is one of my first preferences. You are among a few that have molded and increased my poker knowledge, by making me realize that review and analysis is a key ingredient to becoming a better poker player. Also, I’ve learned different lines of play that are better than the lines I’ve been using. I feel the most important lesson learned, is that reading ranges at different stack sizes is the heart of playing solid poker. Your dedication to ‘You Choose The Action’ went far and beyond the call of duty. I’m sure it was done because of your love of the game.

The only reason I commented on your latest analysis, was not because of the slight pot mistake (very understandable, and trivial). It was because there was a mistake with your hand equity analysis; not that it mattered, because you had AK. However, it may have gotten you in trouble had you held J6o.

I understand that when playing live, you need to pick up certain short cuts to get approximate equity values and odds. Just wanted to point out that when you are figuring out pot odds in AI situations, you need to determine the amount you need to invest compared to what will be in the pot (not including your investment); this is where your math went astray, as you were comparing your investment to the total pot (including your investment). Hence, you felt you were priced in with ATC (2:1) at 33%, as opposed to the actual equity needed which was (1.33:1) 43%. This will result in a different line depending on your hand. Considering the correct equity needed, without reads, with the given stacks, AK is shoving, where as J6o is folding.

I felt this important enough to point out, because this could get you into a spot where you may call a marginal hand thinking you're getting the correct odds.

Major respect,
KS

As a side note, I’ve been studying poker since just before Black Friday, but have only played a few home games for money. My son does very well playing live and on-line. This Saturday we will be going to A.C. for a 150 + 30 MTT. At the moment I’m not sure if I’m ready for live play. It’s not the money, but the live interaction that has me a little concerned. I’ve read ‘Caro’s Book Of Tells’; Sklansky’s “Theory of Poker’; as well as ‘HH 1-3’; at the moment I’m reading ‘Winning Tournaments One Hand At A Time Vol. 1 & 2’. Are there any other books that might prepare me for live play? What is the best way to get introduced to live play? Are there tricks that help keeping track of the opponents’ stacks, and pot total?
.
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 05:34 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Ah!

I see now where you are thinking I went a-stray...

In essence, I was not expressing a "pot odds" thought in my response/reasoning for my shove, but rather an IMPLIED ODDS thought. Think of it in terms of this:

I am "pretending" like it is my opponent moved me all in, and I am contemplating a CALL. That is a lot easier to do when contemplating an all in where you do not care if you get called or not...see?

My implied odds IF CALLED were what I put out there, so I am "assuming" the opponents chips are already in, and calculating my equity based on that...if I get called...see?.

I did not make a distinction in figuring the fold equity inherent in the fact that at least sometimes this nit will likely have a hand me would fold.

To me, pot odds do not necessarily enter into my thinking much, as I am almost never flatting here (only pp MIGHT be flat hands for me really, and without a good price to set mine, call/folding a total of ~30% of my stack would be sick). That means the ultimate result of my decision will be I am either called (and will be getting the price I stated), or I am not called (and pick up nearly a 50% chip up, which is fine for me). As such, I look at the total cost if I am called to determine whether my equity is there to shove with a value hand.

Perhaps next time rather than just saying "odds", I should make that more clear.

You do bring up a good point aobut what I would do with a marginal value hand...

In that case I would HAVE to look at the FE of the situation (if any), and assess that within the total equity I have. In that case I would NOT have acted within 1 second or so, or at least I hope I wouldn;t have!

To be hoenst, even hands like JJ/TT/AQ would have given me pause versus this SB's range, and would have required more thought. AK though was a simple snap decision given 3k was in the pot when I saw my cards.

As for your other questions:

No matter what you read, the only real preparation for live play is live practice.

Home games can be ok to get the feel for picking up tells, and betting patterns, and learning to translate the reads you make on line to a live setting. The problem with home games as practice is that your opponents will not tend to be very good (usually), therefore things you come to 'expect" to see in your home game may not be as easy to pick up in Casino play.

I'd suggest that you not really worry aobut tells and thins like that in preparing for live play though. Concentrate more on reading the tendencies of opponents (who is loose/tight or aggressive/passive) by their actions, try to pick up betting patterns to range opponents more effectively, and stick with your inflection point thoughts regarding hands to play (or not play) as a function of your stack size. all these are things you are probably doing on line already, and they will translate well to live play also.

Believe it or not, the hardest thing for you will probably be managing all the "chip info" that a computer manages for you when you play on line. Opponent chip stacks, bet sizes, your own sack size, and the size of the pot are all going to be a lot harder in live play at first. unless your home game strictly follows TDA tournament rules, chances are the "friendly" atmosphere of those types of games will not really allow you a huge amount of practice either.

I'd suggest you get your son to sit down with you, and practice tracking chips in a Casino Rules situation by delaing and palying a lot of hands...

Those rules are:

1) The dealer will not count down an opponent's stack for you unless it is bet all in.

- Give 9 other opponents "stacks" and have your son move hand to hand acting for each of them, thereby changing the stack sizes.
- Have your son "barber pole" a couple stacks (mix up the colors of the chips in 1 stack)
- Have your son leave a stack or 2 in a pile.
- Note, there is no rule agaisnt taking time to count down an opponent's stack if you are un-sure, and you ARE entitlted to a clear view of his chips in neat stacks (you can ask the dealer to have an opponent separate his chips by color).

This exercise should help you to get a feel for tracking stack sizes, and also how to re-act if/when a stack you are un-sure of cannot be verfified with a count down.

2) The dealer will not count the pot for you.

- Have your son bet, and raise, and even re-raise for opponents, and practice trying to keep the bet sizes and action straight.
- Remember to have him follow Casino procedures for the betting (a bet stays in front of a player until all action is complete, then the dealer drags it into the center in a single pile and/or then creates side pots).
- Note, the dealer will not count down a pot for you, but you CAN ask him to spread the pot so you can count it yourself. Practice across multiple streets, so you get a feel for asking to have the pot spread in case you lose count.

3) Remember your OWN stack.

- Practice stacking your chips in an easy to count way (I use 20 chip stacks myself, so multiples are easy to count).
- Practice leaving your large denomitation chips in plain view for opponents at all times.
- Have your son frequently "test" you at random, when you are in a hand and when you are not in one, to see if you remember your stack; if not, you are perfectly ok in counting it to be sure, but it may feel "wierd" to take the effort to count your own chips in a hand; better to count your chips and be SURE than make a committing call or raise (or a huge value owning over raise) because you mis-remembered though!

If you practice in the actual mechanics of moving chips around at the table in a Casino setting, that should be all you need (given your experience in actual poker paly on line) to be perfectly ready to paly live!

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Mar 09, 2012 at 05:30 PM..
 
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Thanks for the advice - Fri Mar 09, 2012, 12:50 PM
(#14)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Thanks a lot for the advice!

This time of the year my son is very busy (CPA), and I don't really have many 'poker' friends in my area. What I have been doing is playing on-line with the 'display bet' off. It's already getting easier to read the chip colors, tally the bets, and estimate pot size. Unfortunately PS doesn't have chip stacks displayed for each player, so I have to look at the actual number posted for their stack size.

Great tips - Thanks again for your time, and advice!
Keith
 

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