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5nl 6max QJ- thoughts on my total play

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5nl 6max QJ- thoughts on my total play - Thu Mar 08, 2012, 06:33 AM
(#1)
Nashy1996's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 164
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner



Hi everyone,

I have another river spot which i seem to have been involved in alot lately and probably not making very good decisions in.
i decided to isolate from the big blind and i get the 2 callers,i then hit top pair on the flop and lead out and get one of my opponents to fold and one caller on the button(spr:6).

I dont have exact stats on my opponent but i know he was a loose/passive player limping constantly,i fire again 4 value on the turn and get called,then i bet for value on the river trying to size my bet to give myself room to bet/fold but i still couldnt show the dicipline i needed to when he raised me.I decided to call but was pretty angry at myself after the hand because accept J10 i'm not sure what i can beat.
Is that value bet too thin? and am i right in saying its a fold on the end?
thanks as always
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 10:54 AM
(#2)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi nashy,
I personally would of taken the free check pre flop with a mediocre hand and so many limpers,
the flop comes 2J2, you bet out and the passive player calls you?, Im screaming out A2, 32 suited or similar.
Loose players love the button, and will call you preflop with them hands without a worry in the world.
As soon as a passive player calls a bigish bet on the flop you know he/she definate as got something, so time then to back off, i am fearing overpair maybe or he catches a set maybe,maybe rivered the house, either way our QJ is looking reel weak,


THIER VIEW

From his/her view, you raised preflop 5x looked a bit like a steal or maybe AK,AQ or protecting a mid pair especailly if you were playing TAG.

I certainly would of not thought AJ or any hand with a 2 in it or a JACK if you were playing TAG.

You then bet out on the flop, I then would prety much not put you on that 2 and maybe call you with a mid pair or a Jack with a lower kicker.

THE turn I would not think had helped you in any way.So again i would call the turn.

THE river i have just set you up, hitting my 2 pair or house maybe.


IM playing passive so there is no way im raising you unless i have you crushed.

just my thoughts hope this helps

p.s- 72 and 92 I would call from the button in that spot

Last edited by holdemace486; Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 11:00 AM.. Reason: extra bit
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 11:46 AM
(#3)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
hi nash,

I agree with holdem: why didn´t you check your option? a nice suited connector in multiway pot, generally does well.

Alright a raise in this spot i also not a bad option, but then raise more. Raise about twice the pot: 40 cents, that is almost double of what you´ve bet. You´ve made a mistake by the amount you raise.

Next you see a flop:

J 2 2 rainbow!

what hands connect with this board? Jx and a pocket pair.
It is highly unlikely an opponent plays J2 or JJ in this situation seen the preflop action. Even 22 is very unlikely but not impossible.

You hit top pair with a decent kicker.
First question you ask yourself: Which hands beat you? and J with better kicker. All other hands have missed.

Now you ask yourself the question what is the possibility that he has a J with a better kicker?
there are 2 jacks left and there are 2 better kickers:

2 jacks * 4(kings/aces) * 2 (kings/aces) = 16 hand possibilities that have a better J than you. How likely is this? would this player have raised or call the limp with it? As you say he is a calling station then yes.

What J´s do you beat? JT perhaps J9 suited which are 10 possibilities.
all pocket pairs TT and lower. which are 6 possibilities each * 8 = 48 possibilities

What possibilities are there he has an 2? like holdem said A2s 23s that is not too much only 4 possibilities (in case he actually hit trips)

Next mistake, you didn´t ask yourself the question:

How much should I bet in order to allow weaker hands to call me and let me know if I am beat?

as there are only 2 jacks left and pocket pairs who you can beat you shouldn´t bet too much (you did in fact bet over 2/3 of the pot) Why??

Pot is 80 cents, why dont you bet 30 cents? it is more than enough to let weaker hands fold and call by weaker hands and to induce bluffs.

If you bet this low amount, you should also know what you will do if you get raised and on the next streets..

In this example if he would raise me, I would reraise and fold to an allin.

So the guy called: he has a J a pocket pair or a 2!

a 9 peels of on the turn, this may very well made him a full house. Again you bet alot and you only allow big hands to call you, any pocket pair smaller than 88 except 22 should fold here and only JT you are winning now.

Just you big bet should give you enough information to NOT bet the river.

At this point I think he has 99 or A2

I would have checked the river, but you bet he shoves and you call and he probably shows 99 or .

You are betting to big POSTFLOP and too small PREFLOP, this gets you in situations like this.

sjekkkk
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 01:57 PM
(#4)
folkstix's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Personally, I would have checked my option for the reasons stated above.

As played, I would be playing post flop very carefully and most likely for a cheaper showdown. There's no point in bloating a pot out of position and in a situation where you're not really sure where you stand. I don't have a problem with the c-bet, though. Find out where you stand.

When he called on the flop, however, it's mostly likely he has something. I would have slowed down and have checked to him on the turn and seen what he did. If I can check or call down cheaply to showdown at this point I will.

This is a very tough hand to play OOP.
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 03:55 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
Hi Nashy,

I think the river bet is a bit thin, yes. BTW I agree with the other posters preflop, not a big fan of raising QJs out of position against loose limpers, we are not likely to isolate, we are likely to be in a 3 or 4 handed pot out of position and maybe not even the best hand.

When he calls the flop bet on such a dry board he is generally going to have a 1 pair hand or better, or be peeling once with ace high. After he calls the turn the ace high's are gone I think, so now we're looking at a range that consists largely of Jx and trip 2's that are slowplaying, as well as some weaker 1 pair hands like 66 (how station like is he?).

In order to make a thin value bet on the river we need to be able to get called by worse. Hands in his range at the river that beat us: KJ, AJ, J9, J8, , and 99/88 although there's only a few combos of those. Hands we beat: JT, J3-J7, smaller pocket pairs. It gets worse... I don't think we can count all combos of small pocket pairs because we don't even know if he would get to the river with them or not. And the weak jacks it's probably optimistic to count all of the offsuit combos, so we should probably restrict those to suited stuff (that's not true of J9 and probably J8, and certainly not true of KJ or AJ). Bottom line, there are more hands in his range that beat us than we are beating. With the bet sizing you chose on the river, we really can't expect to be called by too many of the worse hands... at the very least he folds the rest of his small pocket pairs and only calls us with Jx. So I think ultimately we should either make a smaller, token value bet (something 66 won't be able to resist calling) or better yet just not bet the river at all. And fold to a raise for sure. If we check, we can probably comfortably fold to any big bet, since a passive guy is not bombing the river with worse hands like J7, he's just going to check those down almost always.

Hope this helps,
Dave


Head Live Trainer
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Fri Mar 09, 2012, 12:41 AM
(#6)
Nashy1996's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 164
Thanks for all the feedback guys its really amazing!
 

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