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$1.50 Fifty50 JJ early stages

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$1.50 Fifty50 JJ early stages - Thu Mar 08, 2012, 09:08 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Early stages Level2 20/40 blinds about 15 hands in I pick up blackjacks.

I am out of position preflop but only get called by SB so have position post flop.

Board comes K high flop two hearts and opp checks - I c-bet 180 into 240 hoping to take it down at this point but opp calls - turn comes a middle heart and I have none of that suit. Opp checks again.

Should I check back or barrel again on this board?

No really solid reads on opp as it is early, other than they have been passive, and are showing passive tendencies again here. They had limped into a few pots, checked their BB in a limped pot and completed one SB. They have so far folded post flop to any action.



Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 09:30 AM.. Reason: added text
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 10:30 AM
(#2)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Its much harder without the outcome lol, with little info on the opp it is hard to evaluate and make a right decission, with the player been passive post flop I would be definate worried on the turn,
I would not wory about the draws so much but be thinking King, maybe KQ with an heart or something like that, I personally would not fire on the turn and try to get through to the river cheap.
The opp may of also been slow playing a set and maybe was worried about the draws themselves.
Interesting hand edin, a good one and a good question. Tough one.
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 10:33 AM
(#3)
wetmoose 613's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 434
ChromeStar
this ain t pretty Ed
my gut says fire 200 and see what happens next.the check option tells you nothing and unless it comes a J ,you pretty much fold to any bet.even the J would leave you with a decision on the flush and the heart makes it definite fold.
do you think he could be trapping? i don t but i ve been wrong before.
the small bet makes him think(if he does)you want him to call or raise(which you do to expose his hand)and keeps you in control. if he s as passive as you think he should fold with air or smaller than K
any bigger bet and you get to far in to get out without damage to your chances to cash.
i f he does c/r your outta there

been wrong before
gl y all
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:01 PM
(#4)
jamesthefish's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
Hi Edin,

I can't fault the play up to now, but the fact this passive player has called your C-bet would set alarm bells ringing for me. He would only continue on this board with either a draw, Kx hand or maybe some medium pairs. He may check-raise with trip 3s or even KQ as it is a drawing board and he may want to protect his hand.

The turn card is bad for your JJ. It completes the flush had the opponent been drawing and changes only a little if he has trip 3s or KQ. As he checks again, he is either trapping with a made flush (in which case he is likely to shove over a turn bet from you), or is trying to get to showdown cheaply as the third heart has scared his holding of trip 3's or KQ.

As it is early in the tournament, I would check back here and get to showdown cheaply. I he bets the river I fold. The problem with a small raise is that he is likely to shove over the top regardless, and you would have to fold. I don't even think a bet of 440 from you on the turn would get him off trip 3's - maybe KQ or another Kx type of hand.

So my goal from the turn would be to get to showdown cheaply. If the river is low / pairs the board, I would probably call up to 200 chips to see the holdings as he can easily percieve your turn check as weakness, and with a Kx hand, he is unlikely to value bet with 3 hearts when you lead out pre-flop.

Will be interesting to see the actual outcome.

Cheers,

James
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:28 PM
(#5)
folkstix's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Since you don't have a great deal of a read to go on I agree with jamesthefish. The fact he's folded to action post flop up to now means he's definitely got a piece of something. Being early I'd also go for a cheap show down and hope he's got a smaller pocket pair that's missed or another piece of the board other than the K. I don't think you're going to push him off his hand which could be as weak as Kx or better based on what you've told us so far. No point throwing good money after bad. Could be wrong though. If you're good at showdown then great.

Are we able to find out the outcome?
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:37 PM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Hi - good thoughts everybody - I will post the following actions and the outcome at some point - there still seems to be some difference of opinion so I'll wait a wee while.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:47 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Hi Ed!

Sticky situation for sure.

Preflop, with JJ, I'm absolutely making a standard open-raise (I normally use 3BB at this level, but 2.5BB if std is perfectly fine too). I'm actually happy it's a blind that calls, as that means that I get to play the rest of the hand in position.

The flop has one overcard, but possible flush or straight draws. When the opp checks, I do like c-betting here and want to bet enough to price out any of the draws and my std here is between 2/3 and 3/4 pot. If I didn't think that a combo draw was very possible, I'll use 2/3 and if I think that it IS possible, then I'll use 3/4. The opp calls, so they should have one of the draws, hit a part of the board, or have a pkt pair.

The turn gives a third heart and the opp checks to me again. If I had a heart, I may check here, both for pot control, but also because if a fourth heart hits, I would have the 2nd/3rd highest flush... depending on which one would hit the board.
Without a heart, I don't want to give the opp a free card if they have a single heart. Due to this, I'm going to make a value bet on the turn and size it between 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot. In this instance, where I could be beat by a K or a heart (or if a Q or A hits on the river), I'll size it on the lower end and bet 300 and re-evaluate on the river.
Since the opp has been passive, if they raise the 300, it's an easy muck for me, as they hit the flush. If the opp calls and checks the river, then I'm going to check the river too, as they could have a K and my hand does have showdown value.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 12:50 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Its much harder without the outcome lol, with little info on the opp it is hard to evaluate and make a right decission
Hi Holdem!

We don't want to know the outcome. Without it, we can't be results oriented. When playing a hand, the key is to NOT be results oriented, but to be making the best decisions that we can at any given time, based on the information that we're given.

Evaluating based on the outcome is exactly what we do not want to do.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 01:16 PM
(#9)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Well here is the outcome.

As you will see I checked back on the turn, then had another difficult decision on the river, where I felt I had to call the fairly small bet, despite the fact this player seemd passive and often had me beat.



Most of you had Kx and specifically KQ in the opps range - I did too - but couldn't get away.

I think it does look like I should have bet the turn, they may have gone away, but with the K they may also have called and I would have checked down the river or folded at that point if they bet, so probably not too much difference.

The good news is I came back from this early set back to take 3rd place and cash for $2.84.

Thanks for all your input.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Thu Mar 08, 2012, 01:24 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Hi Ed!

Good job getting 3rd. With the opp's small bet on the river, with 2nd pair, I'm going to call that almost everytime too. There are too many chips in the pot compared to the call % (14%) to just let them have it. Plus, I now get to see their cards and make a note on them.
It didn't work out, but I like the call on the river.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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