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Hero dealt jc jd - Next Action? 03-09-2012

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Fri Mar 09, 2012, 09:23 AM
(#1)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
PS: turn action isn't missing, the whole hand is there...

Jacks preflop on the button. Ouch. I hate Jacks.

Anyway... Two limpers, and I'm not gonna give the blinds a free flop here. So a raise is in order. 3x would be 90, but with 2 limpers, I'll prolly make it 150 or so. 135 will yield the same result tho, they're not gonna fold 150 when they call 135. The blinds fold and both limpers call.

The flop is pretty decent for our hand - only undercards, rainbow flop, and pretty much the only thing I need to worry about now is a pocket pair the flopped a set.
The first limper donkbets for 60 into 450, which is ridiculously low. Either he is a weak player, or he's trying to get people to come alonmg or come over the top because he did flop a set. You make a raise to 240, but with 510 already in the pot, I think the bet is too small. The donk is now getting almost 3 to 1 on his money. There's a good chance he'd even call the bottom pair here.

The turn is a harmless 5. The only hand that got there is 4,6 and you can't really be all that worried about a hand like 4,6 I think. The opp checks. I agree with another bet on the turn, but I doubt I would have gove over the pot. I would probably bet somewhere around 400 here. That is - if I don't check it back. I don't really see any hands worse than JJ continuing on this board. If he continues, we can worry about the jacks on the river. The opponent shoves, and you can't do anything bot throw in the last chips.

River gets dealt and the JJ holds against his 4,7

evaluation time

ok, so I was wrong - I should have worried about something like 4,6. Or should I? Well, it's the micros, people limp/calling with junk like 4,7 are our livelihood here. We want those people in the pot because they will stack off with a 2nd or 3rd pair here. He played this hand terrible. He was out of position, he had complete trash, he should never have limped to begin with.

Unfortunately, people like him do, and from time ti time they will suck out. C'est la vie. We can't be worrying someone hits 2 pair with his 4,7 off here.

I don't fancy your reasoning though. You raised less preflop to create a pot and bring people along. In my opinion, Jacks are way too vulnerable for a play like that. With AA or KK, yes by all means. With JJ, no thanks.

On the turn, like I said, I don't like the overbet. Reasonably speaking, you're only going to get called there if you're beat. There's no realistic draw there that people could be on that might get them to call with worse. The only worse hand that might call you here is pocket 10s, but there's a decent chance pocket 10s would have done something preflop. So what can the opponent have here?
* A lone pair? They should fold.
* A draw? Not likely.
* Nothing since they missed the flop completely, they're not calling either.
* A baby pocket pair that flopped a set - you're dead
* A baby pocket pair that didn't hit the set - they will likely fold as well
* A monster pocket pair? Not likely, they would have made themselves know preflop.

I don't think you should see the oppponent's play as good. The fact he called a shove with a rag pair the way he did is typical of the donkeys at the micros, but you can play Jacks assuming people will be doing this. As such, I don't think you're shove ion the turn was for value (was it?) If you plan a value bet after all, you have to be able to put your opponent on a hand worse than what you have, but good enough to call with. the pair of 7 is not good enough to call the shove with. As such, the Jacks became a bluff since (as I said) the only hand that should be calling you here is one that is better than your Jacks.

Long answer, hope it helps

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Old
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Fri Mar 09, 2012, 12:46 PM
(#2)
jamesthefish's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
Hi JigJig,

I think Oversights analysis does fit with the hand - it fits to me anyway?

On the whole I am going to agree. I like the raise pre-flop and the flop is good for us. He donk-leads, to which I would raise more than 240 - say 380-450. This would then bloat the pot a bit and make a shove more likely to be called on the river. However, if he jams over you, you have a tricky decision.

If you have identified this player as the sort who would call off a pot-sized river shove from you with any pair, then I can't fault the play, but you are missing out on extra chips in the long run against competant players.

Cheers,

James
 
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Fri Mar 09, 2012, 04:40 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi I'mJigJig!

With JJ and two preflop limpers, I would make a standard raise in this situation (3BB+2BB) to 150. I make the standard raises to help conceal my hand.

The flop brings three rainbow undercards. The first opp checks and the second makes a very small bet (60 into a pot of 450). With an overpair, I'm going to raise, as I need to price out the possible straight draws. Due to this and two opps in the pot, I would raise 2/3 pot (to 400 total). By raising less, if the opps have a straight draw, they are priced in to draw (+EV play for the opps) and I would want to make drawing to try and beat my JJ a -EV play for them.

The turn brings a 5, which could complete two of the straights. The opp checks to me and I'll make a value bet on the turn of 1/2 pot. When the opp raises, I'm calling with JJ and hoping that the opp does not have 68s or 46s.
Luckily the opp did not have the straight, as that draw was not priced out on the flop.

I would have made a std raise preflop, then raised to price out the straight draws on the flop. These two moves would then make a turn shove a much easier play to make.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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