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Sunday Million

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Sunday Million - Sun Mar 11, 2012, 04:13 PM
(#1)
AJEI's Avatar
Since: Oct 2008
Posts: 61
Hi, it was pretty early in the tourney, and I am wondering if I should have played this different or it was just that I ran into a monster.

 
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Sun Mar 11, 2012, 06:32 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Hi AJEI!

Preflop, being deepstacked, I would defend the SB with A9s here and call the min raise by the CO. The BB calling too helps to build the pot if I can get a flush.

With hitting top pair and there being a flush draw on the board, I like leading on the flop. I have TPTK and want to bet for value and also to see the opp's reactions. When the BB raises to the size of the pot, even though I have TPTK, there are a number of hands that I'm behind (higher pair, flush/str8 combo draw and a set). Due to this, I'm going to muck TPTK when the opp raises to the size of the pot.

When the A comes on the turn, since the opp made a large raise on the flop, I would check to them, planning to call a smaller bet just incase the opp was floating with Ax. I wouldn't raise here, as I want to be sure to see the river before committing more chips to the pot.
By not raising the turn, I also set up the river, so that I'm not committed to shoving it regardless. If I was going to shove any river, I would have shoved the turn. I would want to set up making a thin value bet on the river and call a raise if a diamond doesn't hit.

When the river is a Q, the only hands that should call a shove are Ax that hit two pair or a set (and I'm behind AQ or any set)... and not hands that I'm ahead of. I do understand the shove here the way that the hand played out, as after the turn raise, it's a small bet compared to the size of the pot.

I would mucked to the flop raise in this situation, or if in the hand, called the turn and made a thin value bet on the river (planning to call if the opp made a large raise, hoping they didn't have AQ or a set).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Mar 11, 2012, 06:49 PM
(#3)
AJEI's Avatar
Since: Oct 2008
Posts: 61
Thanks
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 05:32 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi AJEI!

Preflop, being deepstacked, I would defend the SB with A9s here and call the min raise by the CO. The BB calling too helps to build the pot if I can get a flush.

John (JWK24)
Hi JWK24 This was an interesting hand! Your post flop line makes complete sense. But, could you explain your preflop line again?

You suggest calling out of position in what will presumably be a three way pot with little or no reads/ranges on the opponents. Our chances of winning this hand post flop don't appear that great. It seems like the only flop that is good for us is the 11% chance we get a nut flush draw. Do we have the implied odds to make this call? Or is it our deep stack that lets us take these chances?

I don't call preflop raises with Axs, suited connectors or small pocket pairs unless I'm in position (or last to act in the bb) and two players are already in the pot.

Furthermore, would reraising preflop to around 650 have been a viable option? Either we force the others to fold, or we can at least narrow their range a bit if they call. If they go over the top then we are done with the hand.

Finally, I get "defending the big blind", but I haven't considered having to defend the small blind. Is this something you routinely make an effort to do?

Thanks!
Roland GTX
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 05:45 AM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
Do we have the implied odds to make this call? Or is it our deep stack that lets us take these chances?
Part of the reason calling OOP to setmine is profitable is because the flopped set is well disguised. In the case of a flopped flush or flush draw, there is no disguise. We might be able to get some money out of our opponents when we make the flush, but people naturally tend to shut down when flushes that don't help them complete. In order for flatting to be profitable, we need a way to get paid off, and I think even most bad players are smart enough to keep us from making money with this hand. I wouldn't even flat this on the button tbh.

Reraising is doable if you think the villain is opening too wide a range and will fold a lot; you'd be using the ace as a blocker. It's really hard to play a weak ace OOP in a raised pot, though. I usually just fold.
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 07:24 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I just took a closer look at the rest of the hand... I agree with John on the flop action. Because the board is wet and the PFR got two callers, I don't see him c-betting a ton. I like taking the initiative, too, but you absolutely have to be ready to fold if the PFR raises. If you see him as the bluffy type who habitually raises donk bets on a bluff, then sure, flat him. But barring a very good read that he's stubborn and aggro postflop, you need to recognize that his raising range on the flop is strong. Overpairs, sets, and two overs with a flush draw should be his range here, and it absolutely crushes you. Fold the flop imo.

The turn is where the hand get really interesting though. When the ace turns, hero makes a solid hand, but it's not a card we should raise. I like checking, but I do not like check/raising. You get value from AK-AT if you checkraise, but you lose TT+ and you're giving money to the sets. If we've narrowed the villain's range correctly, here's how our equity looks:

AdKd, AdQd (possibly AdJd and AdTd) - Very good. We lose if a diamond or the villain's kicker falls on the river, so perhaps 66% equity here.

TT, TT, TT, JJ, JJ, JJ, QQ, QQ, QQ, KK, KK, KK - Excellent - We lose if they river a set, so about 95% equity here.

AA - We're drawing dead. Luckily there is only one combination of AA they can have.

Flopped sets (9 combinations) - Horrible. We're drawing very thin.

So... if we check/raise, which of these hands stay, and which go away? The TP + NFD hands will stay, as will all the villain's sets. That's about 12 hands with roughly 85% equity versus our hand. If we check/call, we keep overpairs in the villain's range and keep the villain's equity at about 45%.

All of this is predicated on the villain being reasonably tight, though, and folding whiffed hands like AK w/ no flush draw on the flop. If he's a bad player, my approach to the hand would vary depending on my read. Without a read, I think we need to assume that he's good and that the above info applies.
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 07:55 AM
(#7)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Good Stuff - thanks PanickyPoker!

Roland GTX

PS: I'm not trying to hijack your post AJEI, but this was an interesting hand
 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 12:02 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Roland!

Deep stacked, I'll take more chances and open up my ranges preflop. When I'm able to hit a hand, there is likely to be a larger pot due to everyone having more chips. Yes, I'll only get the flush draw a small % of the time, but due to the stacks, it can be much more profitable when I do (especially if the opp hits TP or 2 pair).
On a shorter stack, I'm going to muck suited aces from the SB most of the time, unless I have a combo draw (str8/flush combo) or it's just a blind battle.

I wouldn't want to 3-bet preflop, as since I will be playing the hand out of position, I don't want to bloat the pot preflop. When I'm making a play like this, I want to see the flop as cheap as possible, so that it won't cost me many chips if I miss.

I'll play more hands from the BB than the small blind, but in a deep stack situation, with a hand that could potentially stack someone, I'll play more hands from the SB than I would with a shorter stack.
Playing some hands like this early, especially if there are no maniacs at the table, can also help with table image. I'm normally playing TAG, so if I can make my table image look looser than it really is, I can get calls later on when the blinds are larger and I have solid made hands.

I don't look at it as defending a SB, it's more that I'm taking a chance with a marginal hand with potential, that won't cost me many chips to try and could have a large return if I hit. The deeper stacked that I am, the more of these types of hands that I can play. Of course, if my stack size drops, then I'll tighten up until it's built back up.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Mar 12, 2012, 03:08 PM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions John!

I adjust my starting hand range according to my stack size as you lay out, but I'm still pretty cautious when oop as in this example. This would have been a quick preflop fold for me. I do play deep stack mtts when I have the time. Perhaps I need to open up my range a bit. Im goin to think a bit about the impact this can have on my image...

Thanks

Roland GTX
 

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