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HU play | STT

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HU play | STT - Wed Mar 14, 2012, 11:29 PM
(#1)
CZDonkey's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 60
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $150(BB) Replayer
($11,054)
Hero ($2,446)

Dealt to Hero A:club: J:club:

Hero raises to $315, calls $165

FLOP ($630) 8:heart: 2:spade: 5:diamond:

checks, Hero bets $378, raises to $1,200, Hero folds

wins $1,386


are you calling in this spot? he was crazy and against pair its close call.
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:38 AM
(#2)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Hey CZ you are never putting chips in this pot and folding at your stack size. You have an Ace HU. He will miss the flop as often as you and he probably knows that by you putting money in and even considering folding you are weaker than him so he will make any bet or raise to put you off it.

In summary, learn some ICM ranges and ship it in pre.

Giddy Up!
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:54 AM
(#3)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
i cant open the file
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:16 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Hey CZDonkey,

I would fold the flop, but I would also play the hand differently to avoid the difficult decision you had.

One option for this hand is shoving all-in preflop, like Cowboy said. I don't think that is necessarily the best play though, because when you shove a 16bb stack, people tend to back off and call you with only their best hands, because you're leaving them no room to do anything else. If you shove, you're not giving the villain a chance to make a mistake.

If I knew this guy was crazy, I would be trying to keep the pot as small as possible until I knew my hand was likely to be best. Preflop, I might limp here, and if he raised my limp, I would shove all-in. If he checked and I missed the flop, I would take one stab at the pot and then fold. The problem with opening a 16bb stack like you did, is that it leaves you with difficult decisions when the villain flats you. You're going to miss the flop most of the time, but a c-bet will be for quite a large portion of your stack. If he raises you like he did here, you're not going to enjoy it with only ace-high. By limping preflop, you make your flop bet cheaper.
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 09:15 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,812
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi CZDonkey!

A read on how the opp would react to a shove here would help. Had the opp been aggressive or not would help too.

I normally don't open shove unless I am down to about 10BB, but in this case, since the opp has a 5-1 chip lead on me, I'm open-shoving here. It would be out of character and due to that might get called down by less.... and with AJ in a heads-up situation, I want the call. If not, I pick up the blinds/antes without a fight.

Another thing that I do in HU play is to never open-raise for any amount other than 3BB. Smaller open-raises will get called more frequently and since I'm opening my game up, I want to win some pots with the marginal hands that I'm raising with, without having to show.

In this situation with AJ, the only way that I wouldn't open-shove is if the opp was very aggro and I knew that he'd come over my std open... but would fold to my shove. I want the chips in preflop and whether it's me or them doing it (if the opp would be aggro and shove) would not matter to me.

Without the aggro read, I'm open-shoving everytime here.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 09:16 AM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
just to add to the replies i want to say it depends,

How long have you been heads up how is he playing and how have you been playing.

I just finished a heads up match from an STT where chip stacks were similar to your situation. He was playing very ABC TAG. and folding to my raises when he played back i knew he had something and could fold easy.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 12:47 PM
(#7)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
As I have said many times our reads on opponents are key. What has he observed you do? How has he played you to date HU and like Grade asked how far along in HU are we? These are all key facts you have ommitted. These facts help us make better decisions.
I have also stated that putting chips in this spot and taking a small stab when we miss and folding is pure spew. Most of the players at micro level will make mistakes when they see a short stack shoving 16 bb's especially if we do it at the low end of our range as well.

 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 01:13 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
As I have said many times our reads on opponents are key. What has he observed you do? How has he played you to date
I agree that we should have more reads than what the OP provided by this stage of the game, and that we should be using them, but I believe this is a $1 STT, so as far as history goes, I wouldn't be surprised if there's none at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
I have also stated that putting chips in this spot and taking a small stab when we miss and folding is pure spew.
Would you explain this more in-depth? I disagree with, and have never understood this stance. If opening AJo is profitable (which I believe it is), and c-betting is profitable (which I believe it is), and calling the raise is not profitable (which could easily be the case vs. a player who will never 2bet without having flopped something), then what is spewy about folding? It may not be the best way to play the hand, but there's nothing necessarily spewy about it imo.
 
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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 01:14 AM
(#9)
CZDonkey's Avatar
Since: Mar 2010
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
He was playing very ABC TAG. and folding to my raises when he played back i knew he had something and could fold easy.

Grade b
This. from his view. plan was 4bet or call Allin but he just calls
 
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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:41 AM
(#10)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
If you've raised quite a few blinds then he may just feel the need to defend them at this point. In HU you are playing the player more than you are playing your cards. If he hasn't called a raise until this point then you have to give him credit for a strong hand, possibly a pocket pair or stronger A.

Also ask yourself how often have you CBetted and by what amount? If you CBet low when you miss and CBet strong when you hit then that's an Online tell that can be exploited.

I don't think I'm shoving 16BB's pre unless my opponent is an absolute no foldem to any raise.
 
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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 07:52 AM
(#11)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Panicky firstly we are 75 sb 150 bb and we are HU with 18% of the chips. We have a top 10% hand and we have seen at least 50 hands with this goomer maybe more so we do have history. If we have not seen what a player that has 80% of the chips and we are HU agiants has done in the last 50 hands or so we are in trouble reading people.

Secondly, we have 18% of the chips and have a top 10% hand. What you are suggesting is that you want to play post flop with him by keeping the pot small. Let's try and look at this from the perspective of who we are trying to teach here.

A large number of the players that are reading this are losing players and continue to spew money even though they are in here learning because they are taking advice that works against good players given by good players ( i'm giving you a compliment in case anyone thinks I am slamming him ). I have no issue with you playing like this because have game and are consistently profitable.
Our advice IMO has to be focused on the people that need it and from a perspective that will not frustrate them even more.

Since this is a $1 game and his last comment is that this guy is crazy.... I am never playing post flop with him. DO NOT look at this isolated hand but look at the bigger picture. I do not have the stack to play with him.... this is your shoving range as follows

44.2%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K7o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T8o+ 96s+ 98o 85s+ 75s+ 65s 54s

Here is why a shove is most effective...... because you are shoving any of this range or 44% of your range from the sb OOP. We don't have post flop play room here with this stack size. For you losing players that are reading this stop putting chips in and c bet bluffing and folding.

The biggest result this play gives you is the tilt factor it will put your opponent on. He will get sick and tired of it and call off very weakly after a few times of this.

Don't forget that we have a 33% chance of winning against any random 2 cards.

In summary if we have a larger stack we can open fold and if you are not as accomplished as Panicky and other winning players then just get it in pre. BTW I would also suggest you watch the spacegravey videos too as he makes millions playing this way so why would I argue with that!

 
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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 08:34 AM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
We don't have post flop play room here with this stack size. For you losing players that are reading this stop putting chips in and c bet bluffing and folding.
I still don't understand this principle. I believe that the best advice that someone can give another person is advice that broadens their thinking. I think that, "Never open/fold on 16bb," gives strategic advice without any explanation, which doesn't help people learn. Sometimes that kind of advice is okay because it acts as a band-aid for weak poker skill, but here I'm not so sure it even does that.

In this particular hand, Hero opened to 2.1bb, and c-bet only 60% of the pot, which means he put roughly 4.5bb in the pot total. After the shove, he was getting almost 2-to-1 in pot odds and needed about 35% equity to call. But against a pair, two overcards have less than 25% equity. That's why I'm saying that calling here might not be good. Weak players like doing weird things, but I don't think a $1 game is going to be filled with people semibluff-shoving no pair in this kind of spot. If this guy would bluff shove a ton, then go ahead and call.

Like I said before, though, this is not how I would likely play this hand, but I don't think the way Hero played it is wrong at all with the information provided (which is not extensive, so it might benefit OP to work on getting more reads by the HU stage in future).
 

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